I like your attitude, wanting to know everything...
I just wanted to point out again one more thing, as my quest to the sweetest sound (subjective...) lead me to liking systems with one driver reproducing (/almost) the whole freq spectrum...
My present system really mates enormous detailed sound with minimal listening fatigue effects....(still subjective...)
Look at his:http://www.saque.de/html/projekt_1.html
The driver (veravox 3) can produce almost the whole freq spectrum, just add a woofer and you have an excellent two way. The low x-over freq has many advantages (prettty easy to make a match...)
Offcourse there are many other good "fullranges" to choose from..
I use electrostatic panels, I consider this the most optimal combination....but than you would need a suitable amp. (41hz.com AMP9!! Under 50 bucks!!
)
If you have 4 amp channels you can filter dirtcheap (and very good) with r/c filters on the amp inputs.
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
Nice amps:http://www.41hz.com
Hard to beat the value (look at the pricelist and st....
I just wanted to point out again one more thing, as my quest to the sweetest sound (subjective...) lead me to liking systems with one driver reproducing (/almost) the whole freq spectrum...
My present system really mates enormous detailed sound with minimal listening fatigue effects....(still subjective...)
Look at his:http://www.saque.de/html/projekt_1.html
The driver (veravox 3) can produce almost the whole freq spectrum, just add a woofer and you have an excellent two way. The low x-over freq has many advantages (prettty easy to make a match...)
Offcourse there are many other good "fullranges" to choose from..
I use electrostatic panels, I consider this the most optimal combination....but than you would need a suitable amp. (41hz.com AMP9!! Under 50 bucks!!
)If you have 4 amp channels you can filter dirtcheap (and very good) with r/c filters on the amp inputs.
http://www.t-linespeakers.org/tech/filters/passiveHLxo.html
Nice amps:http://www.41hz.com
Hard to beat the value (look at the pricelist and st....
I still don't get why "purists" prefer 2 way but for my case that will be money and space saving ;-)
I think I will start my first 2 way with the paper cone peerless and the seas tweeter and if I'm not satisfied with the sound, I will upgrade my system with a better driver.
What do u think of that choice ?
I have seen some good Vifa drivers but there sensibility are always too low(around 86dB). I'm trying to have 90dB loudspeakers to build a low power tube amp later.
What is the amp link you sent me ? Is it amps all these little circuit board ? Better then tube amp ?
Thanks,
REALFLEO
I think I will start my first 2 way with the paper cone peerless and the seas tweeter and if I'm not satisfied with the sound, I will upgrade my system with a better driver.
What do u think of that choice ?
I have seen some good Vifa drivers but there sensibility are always too low(around 86dB). I'm trying to have 90dB loudspeakers to build a low power tube amp later.
What is the amp link you sent me ? Is it amps all these little circuit board ? Better then tube amp ?
Thanks,
REALFLEO
Well actually purtists prefer single way (one driver producing all freqs.)
The nearest thing to this is a two way with very low x-over freq.
This will bring a lot of ease in the sound (less phase problems and a most accurate point source). The more sound from one point the better the imaging quality mostly is...
About that link, they are amps indeed. These amps have shocked the audio community quite heavily because they produce a soundquality never achieved in this price range before.
Read this:http://www.michael.mardis.com/sonic/start.html
This is about the Sonic impact T-amp (a very tiny amplifier that can be bought for 30$) the article called "sonic surgery" is about how you can enhance the sound even more....
Nowadays there are EVEN better amps with the same sound character
(Hypex UCD, Audiodigit, Autocostruire, DIYparadise, 41hz.com etc.)
Most of these designs share IC's from the brand Tripath, they sound so 3D and ultra detailed that many people (including me) put aside their tube amps.
There are people that don't agree on these amps being the best, but taken the price in account they are unbeatable!!
The nearest thing to this is a two way with very low x-over freq.
This will bring a lot of ease in the sound (less phase problems and a most accurate point source). The more sound from one point the better the imaging quality mostly is...
About that link, they are amps indeed. These amps have shocked the audio community quite heavily because they produce a soundquality never achieved in this price range before.
Read this:http://www.michael.mardis.com/sonic/start.html
This is about the Sonic impact T-amp (a very tiny amplifier that can be bought for 30$) the article called "sonic surgery" is about how you can enhance the sound even more....
Nowadays there are EVEN better amps with the same sound character
(Hypex UCD, Audiodigit, Autocostruire, DIYparadise, 41hz.com etc.)
Most of these designs share IC's from the brand Tripath, they sound so 3D and ultra detailed that many people (including me) put aside their tube amps.
There are people that don't agree on these amps being the best, but taken the price in account they are unbeatable!!
I'm not sure I'm doing a good thing by using the peerless driver... I'm scared about the quality of this driver. I haven't seen anybody using it ...
I found a alternative drivers combinaison:
The vifa D27TG45-06 tweeter
http://www.digitalmegahouse.com.au/images/D27TG-45-06.pdf
and the Vifa PL18WO-09-08 wich you told me is good quality.
A lot of persons are using Vifa for their loudspeaker, there must be a reason ...
Thanks a lot.
REALFLEO
I found a alternative drivers combinaison:
The vifa D27TG45-06 tweeter
http://www.digitalmegahouse.com.au/images/D27TG-45-06.pdf
and the Vifa PL18WO-09-08 wich you told me is good quality.
A lot of persons are using Vifa for their loudspeaker, there must be a reason ...
Thanks a lot.
REALFLEO
Vifa is a very good brand, but the D27 is said to be not very constant in quality, many of them don't match up with the specs.
This is what Willitwork posted about them in a thread about the pl18 TL:
I used to like it as well until I started running into so many bad ones that I don't dare buy D27's anymore, and this applies to all of them (15's, 35's and 45's). The risk of having problems is simply too high. By "problems" I mean units that measure way outside their published specs and don't even come close to matching with one another. It's not a question of tolerances, they're just plain bad. I know Vifa supposedly fixed problems with the D27 but I've had problems with the "fixed" ones as well so I have my doubts. I'm very close to thinking that the D27 line was poorly designed, plain and simple. This being said I have no complaints about other Vifa tweeter models, I especially appreciate the D25 and D26 but unfortunately these are hard to come by these days. But on the bright side of things, is there are better quality tweeters that sell for less (at least in North America) available to DIY'ers now, such as Hi-Vi units.
As for the PL18, in my personal experience it's an excellent driver.
Really Reafleo, It's not a bad idea to use a small fullrange speaker and forget about the whole tweeter..
Read what people have to say about fullrange on this very forum......They aren't in love with them for nothing....
This is what Willitwork posted about them in a thread about the pl18 TL:
I used to like it as well until I started running into so many bad ones that I don't dare buy D27's anymore, and this applies to all of them (15's, 35's and 45's). The risk of having problems is simply too high. By "problems" I mean units that measure way outside their published specs and don't even come close to matching with one another. It's not a question of tolerances, they're just plain bad. I know Vifa supposedly fixed problems with the D27 but I've had problems with the "fixed" ones as well so I have my doubts. I'm very close to thinking that the D27 line was poorly designed, plain and simple. This being said I have no complaints about other Vifa tweeter models, I especially appreciate the D25 and D26 but unfortunately these are hard to come by these days. But on the bright side of things, is there are better quality tweeters that sell for less (at least in North America) available to DIY'ers now, such as Hi-Vi units.
As for the PL18, in my personal experience it's an excellent driver.
Really Reafleo, It's not a bad idea to use a small fullrange speaker and forget about the whole tweeter..
Read what people have to say about fullrange on this very forum......They aren't in love with them for nothing....
And you should know, they are very capable of handling lots of power when they are filtered in the lower freqs.
One with very high efficiency is the Galagy audio "neolite" S5N driver.
Or offcourse the expensive Lowther drivers...
Or one with very flat response, the monacor SPH-64X/AD, not expensive...flat wire voice coil (nice!)
Or Vifa 10BGS, very flat 90db response, and extremely good dynamic behavior...
Or still the Veravox 3, very very good for the price...
One with very high efficiency is the Galagy audio "neolite" S5N driver.
Or offcourse the expensive Lowther drivers...
Or one with very flat response, the monacor SPH-64X/AD, not expensive...flat wire voice coil (nice!)
Or Vifa 10BGS, very flat 90db response, and extremely good dynamic behavior...
Or still the Veravox 3, very very good for the price...
Interresting all these full range drivers !
The only thing that I'm worried about is the their response graph. They have 2 frequency resonance point. Will it be complicated to design the x-over to fix that? But what a sensitivity for the price ! I will never reach that with 2ways ...
Do you have good references for cabinet and x-over design for full range speaker ?
So it means I have some reading left before starting my project ...
Thanks,
REALFLEO
The only thing that I'm worried about is the their response graph. They have 2 frequency resonance point. Will it be complicated to design the x-over to fix that? But what a sensitivity for the price ! I will never reach that with 2ways ...
Do you have good references for cabinet and x-over design for full range speaker ?
So it means I have some reading left before starting my project ...
Thanks,
REALFLEO
Hello Realfleo
I don't know if you know these site, but they will provide you with many great design examples and walkthrough.
Zaph audio: He has done many affordable design and there is a lot of information about loudspeakers measurements and parameters:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
Humble homemade hi-fi:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
Many High end desings, some using the drivers you mentionned.
By the way, the required sensitivity depends on your listening room. I have a small room and very low sensitivity speakers (in the 84 dB range approx). I'm using a 8 watt DIY tube amp, and the sound is great.
2 way speakers are simpler to do, economical to build, provide good performance, are smaller, easier to get right, etc. etc. For a first project, they are a must.
F
I don't know if you know these site, but they will provide you with many great design examples and walkthrough.
Zaph audio: He has done many affordable design and there is a lot of information about loudspeakers measurements and parameters:
http://www.zaphaudio.com/
Humble homemade hi-fi:
http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/
Many High end desings, some using the drivers you mentionned.
By the way, the required sensitivity depends on your listening room. I have a small room and very low sensitivity speakers (in the 84 dB range approx). I'm using a 8 watt DIY tube amp, and the sound is great.
2 way speakers are simpler to do, economical to build, provide good performance, are smaller, easier to get right, etc. etc. For a first project, they are a must.
F
Ok so what you guys think about these Vifa's drivers:
Tweeter: D26TG3506 or the DX19TD0504 (witch one is the best with the PL18 ?)
Woofer: PL18WO0908
Maybe I can do a similar cabinet
http://www.solen.ca/premium.htm
Thanks
Tweeter: D26TG3506 or the DX19TD0504 (witch one is the best with the PL18 ?)
Woofer: PL18WO0908
Maybe I can do a similar cabinet
http://www.solen.ca/premium.htm
Thanks
I have used the D26 tweeter. It is a nice sounding tweeter, not very expensive and worth the money.
IMO, Vifa and SEAS makes excellent products. Well worth the money. BUT, the sound of your system is more a matter of good design and implementation. That's why the design of crossover is very very important. I think the Solen design on their website seems too much "generic". They do not give much information about the sound, design process, etc. Check out the links I have posted, you will see that there is much more information available on these sites.
F
IMO, Vifa and SEAS makes excellent products. Well worth the money. BUT, the sound of your system is more a matter of good design and implementation. That's why the design of crossover is very very important. I think the Solen design on their website seems too much "generic". They do not give much information about the sound, design process, etc. Check out the links I have posted, you will see that there is much more information available on these sites.
F
I cant get into you "enclosure" link, it won't open...
The one tweeter seems to be a 19mm and the other a 26mm, I would -as I've made pretty clear allready- choose the one with the lowest resonant frequency (Vifa started to use drilled magnet poles and chambers behind from a certain point, before the produced domes with no large chamber whatsoever. The soundquality improved a lot from that point...)
A fullrange driver has even much lower resonant freq. that's why implementation is often a lot easier than with a tweet-woof combi. The only drawback is expensive filter components for the lower x-over freq...
I'm not sure what you mean by this double resonant freq. A fullrange driver has one resonant freq just like a tweeter...(can be seen from a peak in the impedance curve).
I think it's nothing to worry about, just bi-amp and use R/C filtering and you can keep the filter very cheap (and pretty good too!).
There was a post by someone directing to a commercial speaker brand that used veravox 3 in a whole speaker line (as two ways and 2.5 ways etc.etc.), unfortunately I can't find it anymore...
I will keep trying to find it, or hopefully someone who reads this knows it?...
The one tweeter seems to be a 19mm and the other a 26mm, I would -as I've made pretty clear allready- choose the one with the lowest resonant frequency (Vifa started to use drilled magnet poles and chambers behind from a certain point, before the produced domes with no large chamber whatsoever. The soundquality improved a lot from that point...)
A fullrange driver has even much lower resonant freq. that's why implementation is often a lot easier than with a tweet-woof combi. The only drawback is expensive filter components for the lower x-over freq...
I'm not sure what you mean by this double resonant freq. A fullrange driver has one resonant freq just like a tweeter...(can be seen from a peak in the impedance curve).
I think it's nothing to worry about, just bi-amp and use R/C filtering and you can keep the filter very cheap (and pretty good too!).
There was a post by someone directing to a commercial speaker brand that used veravox 3 in a whole speaker line (as two ways and 2.5 ways etc.etc.), unfortunately I can't find it anymore...
I will keep trying to find it, or hopefully someone who reads this knows it?...
http://www.lautsprecher-shop.de/hifi/index.htm?/hifi/noboxbb.htm
This is an example with visaton B200 (very nice 8" fullrange speaker)
Many people speak very higly of this design...(note that open baffled designs produce far less distortion...).
But I would recon an enclosure will keep the design more compact, and a smaller fullrange driver produces better high frequency (better spreading, lighter cone etc.....).
This is an example with visaton B200 (very nice 8" fullrange speaker)
Many people speak very higly of this design...(note that open baffled designs produce far less distortion...).
But I would recon an enclosure will keep the design more compact, and a smaller fullrange driver produces better high frequency (better spreading, lighter cone etc.....).
by double Fs I was thinking about a Fs for the woofer/mid and one for the tweeter ... I'm prolly wrong...
So you think I should choose the DX cuz his Fs is around 650(lower then the other D26...). Will it be difficult to build an L-Pad to demper his sensitivity to 87 like the woofer ? With a crossover point to 2.5Khz ? to benefit of almost 2 octave ...
I don't think I want to use a full range. Building the cabinet seams really difficult, tuning it too. I think I will follow the advice of the other guy saying I should start with a 2way.
But seriously, do you think I'm doing a good choice with the Vifa PL... woofer and Vifa DX... tweeter ? Does the SEAS tweeter dans the Peerless woofer a better combination ? To match with the Vifa woofer do you have a better tweeter suggestion (around 40$).
Thank,
REALFLEO
So you think I should choose the DX cuz his Fs is around 650(lower then the other D26...). Will it be difficult to build an L-Pad to demper his sensitivity to 87 like the woofer ? With a crossover point to 2.5Khz ? to benefit of almost 2 octave ...
I don't think I want to use a full range. Building the cabinet seams really difficult, tuning it too. I think I will follow the advice of the other guy saying I should start with a 2way.
But seriously, do you think I'm doing a good choice with the Vifa PL... woofer and Vifa DX... tweeter ? Does the SEAS tweeter dans the Peerless woofer a better combination ? To match with the Vifa woofer do you have a better tweeter suggestion (around 40$).
Thank,
REALFLEO
I think that PL18 is a very fine woofer, 40mm voice coil and pretty low but not to low Qts...good choice!'
Here's another mans quest with a TL...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88155
I quoted from this thread before (about the D27...).
The last time I bought a Vifa tweeter it was a HT275/D2, much like the D26 (if not similar). I thought of it as a very fine tweeter for the money,
much like the far more expensive Dynaudio tweeters that sold back than..Natural and very clear sound with very good spread, but later on I went to Morel neodyme domes that can be placed on top of the enclosure. They produced a much more wide spread and improved the imaging a lot.
When I ran into some old Quad ESL-57's I couldn't believe my ears. The first sound I heard from the panels was a CD that started with water splashing sounds, I felt the urge to wipe under the speaker to feel if it got wet . Afterwards I skipped the bass panels and was left with the treble units (quite a slender panel ) that I combined with several different bass drivers (dynamic bass drivers) in the meanwhile...
I never really looked for 'ultimate' domes again...
The bass systems that combine well with ESLs are TL or OB, that PL18 wouldn't work well in either...(sadly because both systems are high on my list of preferance because their low listening fatigue level, afterall you DO want to listen to them for long periods of time don't you?).
I did by the way read very positive things about those vifa ring radiators (TX...) I would figure they have better spread than a dome...don't know about the price thou...
Here's another mans quest with a TL...
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88155
I quoted from this thread before (about the D27...).
The last time I bought a Vifa tweeter it was a HT275/D2, much like the D26 (if not similar). I thought of it as a very fine tweeter for the money,
much like the far more expensive Dynaudio tweeters that sold back than..Natural and very clear sound with very good spread, but later on I went to Morel neodyme domes that can be placed on top of the enclosure. They produced a much more wide spread and improved the imaging a lot.
When I ran into some old Quad ESL-57's I couldn't believe my ears. The first sound I heard from the panels was a CD that started with water splashing sounds, I felt the urge to wipe under the speaker to feel if it got wet
. Afterwards I skipped the bass panels and was left with the treble units (quite a slender panel ) that I combined with several different bass drivers (dynamic bass drivers) in the meanwhile...I never really looked for 'ultimate' domes again...
The bass systems that combine well with ESLs are TL or OB, that PL18 wouldn't work well in either...(sadly because both systems are high on my list of preferance because their low listening fatigue level, afterall you DO want to listen to them for long periods of time don't you?).
I did by the way read very positive things about those vifa ring radiators (TX...) I would figure they have better spread than a dome...don't know about the price thou...
I think this driver must be better because of his sensitivity that is closer to the PL woofer.
The Vifa XT19TD0004
http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=111
What you think ?
The Vifa XT19TD0004
http://www.tymphany.com/datasheet/printview.php?id=111
What you think ?
Ok so while continuing reading about tweeters, I found a really nice one (forget the other Vifa).
SEAS 27TDFC06
http://www.seas.no/Prestige Diskanter PDF/27TDFC_1189ny06.pdf
It's a fabric dome tweeter, 91dB, 90W, 6 Omhs.
There is magnetic fluid in it, the response curve is flat and the Fs is 550 ! (only 39.75CAN$)
I think I'll buy this one !
About the Peerless, should I buy the 4 Omhs version what's the best ... ?
Thanks
REALFLEO
SEAS 27TDFC06
http://www.seas.no/Prestige Diskanter PDF/27TDFC_1189ny06.pdf
It's a fabric dome tweeter, 91dB, 90W, 6 Omhs.
There is magnetic fluid in it, the response curve is flat and the Fs is 550 ! (only 39.75CAN$)
I think I'll buy this one !
About the Peerless, should I buy the 4 Omhs version what's the best ... ?
Thanks
REALFLEO
That seas look pretty good!
Only an impedance of 6 ohms is a bit offbeat, it would be nicer to have them both 8 ohms as this would be easier on the amplifier..
And because different impedances makes designing the filter harder it wouldn't be preferred (but not impossible...).
Another thing, I wouldn't choose a tweeter with ferrofluid (despite the fact they say they use low viscosity) this mostly makes the dome less responsive and raises Fs. (sometimes after a while, because the oil often becomes thicker after a longer period).
It IS possible to remove the ferrofluid by a piece of paper (a tricky operation for noobs, but experienced builders would think of it as an easy job. Use normal paper, this will suck it up quite easy)
Note that it can have an effect on the power handling!
Only an impedance of 6 ohms is a bit offbeat, it would be nicer to have them both 8 ohms as this would be easier on the amplifier..
And because different impedances makes designing the filter harder it wouldn't be preferred (but not impossible...).
Another thing, I wouldn't choose a tweeter with ferrofluid (despite the fact they say they use low viscosity) this mostly makes the dome less responsive and raises Fs. (sometimes after a while, because the oil often becomes thicker after a longer period).
It IS possible to remove the ferrofluid by a piece of paper (a tricky operation for noobs, but experienced builders would think of it as an easy job. Use normal paper, this will suck it up quite easy)
Note that it can have an effect on the power handling!
I have look on different brends and it seams really difficult to find a tweeter with impedance of 8 Ohms. The majority are 6 or 4 Ohms.
Maybe I should use the other version of that tweeter that doesn't use magnetic fluid. The only difference is in the power handling 55W instead of 90.
SEAS
http://www.seas.no/Prestige Diskanter PDF/27TDC_1149ny06.pdf
Thanks,
REALFLEO
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