Ambiguity
Tam Shaun,
I would be more careful with such a statement. The PCM1704 might be the better one, but there are more things to try...
An example: Earlier today I was listening to the Wadia 581 (!) with it fantastic technology and PCM1704 by me at home. Well, it was not "better" then my AVM with PCM63P-Y. It was "different".
The Wadia sounded grandiose. However, I can also tell you that with my own recordings, the orchestra instruments sounded bigger on the Wadia then they are in reality. For example, a Bass-Clarinet recorded while being played with a soft reed (let’s say reed strength 2, which is very light) sounded like it had strength 4 (quite heavy, having more “body” and “substance”). It is very appealing, the WADIA sound, it is fantastic, but not surely realistic.
Of course, it is not the chip alone which make the sound & differences to be what they are.
As for your Rotel: Depends on the implementation, caps etc., the PCM1704 should sound indeed more detailed and "sweet" then the PCM63P-K. You can call this "better" - I agree. However, PCM63P-K - with all respect - is NOT yet the best 63chip...
Indeed, when I compared once the PCM1704U-K (the best selection grade of the PCM1704, mounted on Monarchy Audio’s Adapters) with the PCM63P-K, the 1704 was just as described by you. However, it was tremendously worse that the "PCM63P-Y" from A'AF, which might well be not even a genuine BB chip...
Now I am about to try PCM1704U-K from "Audiotuning" (with BG Cups) against the genuine "PCM63P-Y" (and the genuine "PCM63P-KY"), in the same DAC of course. I will need a bit more time for doing this & I will report here accordingly.
Back to your Rotel: Most important is that you are enjoying it now, so this all what should counts for you. I hope that someone here will be able to help you with the other questions you asked?!
What for a digital filter you are using?
Greetings,
IJ
Tam Shaun said:
Tam Shaun,
I would be more careful with such a statement. The PCM1704 might be the better one, but there are more things to try...
An example: Earlier today I was listening to the Wadia 581 (!) with it fantastic technology and PCM1704 by me at home. Well, it was not "better" then my AVM with PCM63P-Y. It was "different".
The Wadia sounded grandiose. However, I can also tell you that with my own recordings, the orchestra instruments sounded bigger on the Wadia then they are in reality. For example, a Bass-Clarinet recorded while being played with a soft reed (let’s say reed strength 2, which is very light) sounded like it had strength 4 (quite heavy, having more “body” and “substance”). It is very appealing, the WADIA sound, it is fantastic, but not surely realistic.
Of course, it is not the chip alone which make the sound & differences to be what they are.
As for your Rotel: Depends on the implementation, caps etc., the PCM1704 should sound indeed more detailed and "sweet" then the PCM63P-K. You can call this "better" - I agree. However, PCM63P-K - with all respect - is NOT yet the best 63chip...
Indeed, when I compared once the PCM1704U-K (the best selection grade of the PCM1704, mounted on Monarchy Audio’s Adapters) with the PCM63P-K, the 1704 was just as described by you. However, it was tremendously worse that the "PCM63P-Y" from A'AF, which might well be not even a genuine BB chip...
Now I am about to try PCM1704U-K from "Audiotuning" (with BG Cups) against the genuine "PCM63P-Y" (and the genuine "PCM63P-KY"), in the same DAC of course. I will need a bit more time for doing this & I will report here accordingly.
Back to your Rotel: Most important is that you are enjoying it now, so this all what should counts for you. I hope that someone here will be able to help you with the other questions you asked?!
What for a digital filter you are using?
Greetings,
IJ
Update...
Hi Telstar!
you are in Milano? well I'm now in la bella Roma....
Where have we been? Look, Manfred and I kept our eye on PCM1704, comparing it again and again to the PCM63 (last time we have done this was only 2 weeks ago...)- and we have no doubt - K2, KY and Y are the better PCMs. Actually, we have by now 8 paars of KY and 3 paars of Y - and we are 100% happy with the "Y" (our numero uno) and "KY" (second choice).
Meanwhile, a very respected diyaudio mamber wrote to us - in a privat mail - that one should not try to compare PCMs when they are "cold". He suggest that we better wait 15 min. before listening /comparing the differences. I don't think that it is possible (at least not for me personally) to compare chips after 15 min. of having to wait; this is too much for my sound-memory.
Some report concerning the digital filter: I changed to SM5842APT - and it is indeed much more "musical" then the DF1704 (on slow). I am using the dithering, and it is excellent.
Another point - I am using the receiver (CS8414) as a 16Bit (right j.). Interesting: Both digital filters (the SM5842 and/or the DF1704) sound better when they receive 16Bit input. So it is all working 16Bit from the SPDIF through the receiver - until the filter. Only in the Filter the bit rate changes to 20Bit (for the PCM63).
Did you follow the other thread, "Real or Fake PCM63"?
Greetings,
IJ.
Hi Telstar!
you are in Milano? well I'm now in la bella Roma....
Where have we been? Look, Manfred and I kept our eye on PCM1704, comparing it again and again to the PCM63 (last time we have done this was only 2 weeks ago...)- and we have no doubt - K2, KY and Y are the better PCMs. Actually, we have by now 8 paars of KY and 3 paars of Y - and we are 100% happy with the "Y" (our numero uno) and "KY" (second choice).
Meanwhile, a very respected diyaudio mamber wrote to us - in a privat mail - that one should not try to compare PCMs when they are "cold". He suggest that we better wait 15 min. before listening /comparing the differences. I don't think that it is possible (at least not for me personally) to compare chips after 15 min. of having to wait; this is too much for my sound-memory.
Some report concerning the digital filter: I changed to SM5842APT - and it is indeed much more "musical" then the DF1704 (on slow). I am using the dithering, and it is excellent.
Another point - I am using the receiver (CS8414) as a 16Bit (right j.). Interesting: Both digital filters (the SM5842 and/or the DF1704) sound better when they receive 16Bit input. So it is all working 16Bit from the SPDIF through the receiver - until the filter. Only in the Filter the bit rate changes to 20Bit (for the PCM63).
Did you follow the other thread, "Real or Fake PCM63"?
Greetings,
IJ.
Re: Update...
Hi Telstar!
you are in Milano? well I'm now in la bella Roma....
Yes, Rome is always beautiful and truly eternal.
Where have we been? Look, Manfred and I kept our eye on PCM1704, comparing it again and again to the PCM63 (last time we have done this was only 2 weeks ago...)- and we have no doubt - K2, KY and Y are the better PCMs. Actually, we have by now 8 paars of KY and 3 paars of Y - and we are 100% happy with the "Y" (our numero uno) and "KY" (second choice).
But the standard pcm63 is worse to the standard 1704.
Now I'd like to hear about selected versions of the 1704 too
I own a Muse model2 DAC, which is based on the PCM63 and I like it, but I'm looking for an upgrade or some improvement. Redbook is my main source so I cannot rule out 20bit (it is enough for 14/44.1).
Where the 1704 may shine is with direct interpolation to 352.8khz. My experience is that 44.1 x8 oversampling makes for the best SQ.
Meanwhile, a very respected diyaudio mamber wrote to us - in a privat mail - that one should not try to compare PCMs when they are "cold". He suggest that we better wait 15 min. before listening /comparing the differences. I don't think that it is possible (at least not for me personally) to compare chips after 15 min. of having to wait; this is too much for my sound-memory.
I could Up to 20-30 mins. You should memorize one track or better one full CD. For some kind of differences A/B comparison is NOT the best.
Listening fatigue is one of these parameters. One DAC that seems more detailed and crisp can become fatiguing after awhile.
Some report concerning the digital filter: I changed to SM5842APT - and it is indeed much more "musical" then the DF1704 (on slow). I am using the dithering, and it is excellent.
Did you try no filter at all?
I suggest (if you can find it) the PMD200 from pacific microsonics, which is also one of the best on HDCD.
Another point - I am using the receiver (CS8414) as a 16Bit (right j.). Interesting: Both digital filters (the SM5842 and/or the DF1704) sound better when they receive 16Bit input. So it is all working 16Bit from the SPDIF through the receiver - until the filter. Only in the Filter the bit rate changes to 20Bit (for the PCM63).
Check my thread I just started about receivers, here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133884
I'm more and more convinced that they play a major role and I want to explore the matter.
Did you follow the other thread, "Real or Fake PCM63"?
Quickly, I'll check it better now.
Hi Telstar!
you are in Milano? well I'm now in la bella Roma....
Yes, Rome is always beautiful and truly eternal.
Where have we been? Look, Manfred and I kept our eye on PCM1704, comparing it again and again to the PCM63 (last time we have done this was only 2 weeks ago...)- and we have no doubt - K2, KY and Y are the better PCMs. Actually, we have by now 8 paars of KY and 3 paars of Y - and we are 100% happy with the "Y" (our numero uno) and "KY" (second choice).
But the standard pcm63 is worse to the standard 1704.
Now I'd like to hear about selected versions of the 1704 too
I own a Muse model2 DAC, which is based on the PCM63 and I like it, but I'm looking for an upgrade or some improvement. Redbook is my main source so I cannot rule out 20bit (it is enough for 14/44.1).
Where the 1704 may shine is with direct interpolation to 352.8khz. My experience is that 44.1 x8 oversampling makes for the best SQ.
Meanwhile, a very respected diyaudio mamber wrote to us - in a privat mail - that one should not try to compare PCMs when they are "cold". He suggest that we better wait 15 min. before listening /comparing the differences. I don't think that it is possible (at least not for me personally) to compare chips after 15 min. of having to wait; this is too much for my sound-memory.
I could
Up to 20-30 mins. You should memorize one track or better one full CD. For some kind of differences A/B comparison is NOT the best.Listening fatigue is one of these parameters. One DAC that seems more detailed and crisp can become fatiguing after awhile.
Some report concerning the digital filter: I changed to SM5842APT - and it is indeed much more "musical" then the DF1704 (on slow). I am using the dithering, and it is excellent.
Did you try no filter at all?
I suggest (if you can find it) the PMD200 from pacific microsonics, which is also one of the best on HDCD.
Another point - I am using the receiver (CS8414) as a 16Bit (right j.). Interesting: Both digital filters (the SM5842 and/or the DF1704) sound better when they receive 16Bit input. So it is all working 16Bit from the SPDIF through the receiver - until the filter. Only in the Filter the bit rate changes to 20Bit (for the PCM63).
Check my thread I just started about receivers, here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133884
I'm more and more convinced that they play a major role and I want to explore the matter.
Did you follow the other thread, "Real or Fake PCM63"?
Quickly, I'll check it better now.
Re: Re: Update...
QUOTE]Originally posted by Telstar
But the standard pcm63 is worse to the standard 1704
Probably.
Now I'd like to hear about selected versions of the 1704 too
It seems that some other diyaudio member will have to volunteer here...
I cannot rule out 20bit (it is enough for 14/44.1)
I would say - for 16/44.1, yes indeed.
Where the 1704 may shine is with direct interpolation to 352.8khz.
Am still looking for a volunteer here.
My experience is that 44.1 x8 oversampling makes for the best SQ
OK.
I could Up to 20-30 mins. You should memorize one track or better one full CD. For some kind of differences A/B comparison is NOT the best.
Listening fatigue is one of these parameters. One DAC that seems more detailed and crisp can become fatiguing after awhile
I can memorize the sound of a full opera, this is not the problem.... When comparing and evaluating, I am using at least 8 different tracks, recorded in different acoustics. The A/B comparison is not being done just once - but several time, one after the other. Then you don't come to a problem of changing an opinion after a while.
Did you try no filter at all?
Not with my actual DAC.
I suggest (if you can find it) the PMD200 from pacific microsonics, which is also one of the best on HDCD
Yes, but there is no way to find it...
Check my thread I just started about receivers, here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133884 I'm more and more convinced that they play a major role and I want to explore the matter.
Thanks! I simply gave up about having a receiver for the Clock recovery.
Greetings.
QUOTE]Originally posted by Telstar
But the standard pcm63 is worse to the standard 1704
Probably.
Now I'd like to hear about selected versions of the 1704 too
It seems that some other diyaudio member will have to volunteer here...
I cannot rule out 20bit (it is enough for 14/44.1)
I would say - for 16/44.1, yes indeed.
Where the 1704 may shine is with direct interpolation to 352.8khz.
Am still looking for a volunteer here.
My experience is that 44.1 x8 oversampling makes for the best SQ
OK.
I could
Up to 20-30 mins. You should memorize one track or better one full CD. For some kind of differences A/B comparison is NOT the best. Listening fatigue is one of these parameters. One DAC that seems more detailed and crisp can become fatiguing after awhile
I can memorize the sound of a full opera, this is not the problem.... When comparing and evaluating, I am using at least 8 different tracks, recorded in different acoustics. The A/B comparison is not being done just once - but several time, one after the other. Then you don't come to a problem of changing an opinion after a while.
Did you try no filter at all?
Not with my actual DAC.
I suggest (if you can find it) the PMD200 from pacific microsonics, which is also one of the best on HDCD
Yes, but there is no way to find it...
Check my thread I just started about receivers, here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=133884 I'm more and more convinced that they play a major role and I want to explore the matter.
Thanks! I simply gave up about having a receiver for the Clock recovery.
Greetings.
eddylws said:
Hi Eddy Lim,
I remember we corresponded ones about DF1700 and DF1704, but this was in connection to the PCM 63 mods: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1456483#post1456483
There was also a question about PCM63 K and K2. May be you remember, or can report how thing went since then?
Eventualy, already in the above mentioned link, you meant PCM1704U (but not the DF1704?). Sorry for the confusion.
If you need info about PCM1704, may be a “Search” will be of help for you. It might also be VERY useful to keep all the PCM1704 technical info in a separat thread.
Greetings,
IJ.
![IMGHTTPDEAD]](/community/proxy.php?image=http%3A%2F%2F%5BIMGHTTPDEAD%5Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fimg25.imageshack.us%2Fimg25%2F7997%2Fpmc63py.jpg%5B%2FIMGHTTPDEAD%5D&hash=3abbd161f1543cbc45fbe8ca0f4434e7)
Hi Serge,
Long time ago.... but yes, I had the K2, which was very good, for sure it was better than the K. It was more transparent, gave acurate sound.
Greetings,
IJ
Thanks this is usefull.
I found this dac. They ask 300 RMB (47 USD) extra to upgrade from 4 * K to 4 * K2. Based on your experience is it worthwhile?
Also I think that you commented that having 4 chip instead of 2 did make a big difference.
What do you think of the below devise? It looks like the manufacturer read this post....
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?scm=1007.77.0.0&id=7507654528&ad_id=&am_id=&cm_id=&pm_id=
Serge
I found this dac. They ask 300 RMB (47 USD) extra to upgrade from 4 * K to 4 * K2. Based on your experience is it worthwhile?
Also I think that you commented that having 4 chip instead of 2 did make a big difference.
What do you think of the below devise? It looks like the manufacturer read this post....
http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?scm=1007.77.0.0&id=7507654528&ad_id=&am_id=&cm_id=&pm_id=
Serge
4x DAC
Hi again,
No, it was not me who have a 4x DAC with PCM63- (K, or K2, or KY, or Y...); other mamber(s) here were dealing with it; if I'm not wrong it was about the full symetric Pass DAC 1.
As for the extra 47 US$ for upgrading to K2 - this might make sense; however one should keep in mind that each chip is quite unique and can sound different even when at the same grade. I choose a pair of excellent "Y" from about 5 different "Y" chips - after listening to each of them by its own.
BTW, A differenz subject that meanwhile got major attention is the 24/96 signal (source). Now, while the PCM63 is capable of max 48/20 (hope I still remember the numbers correctly!), what I can tell you is that it is s very capable chip: I am using a Ronald Edirol 24/96 HD recorder to record live classical music. Now, for playback I am usind the card via my labtop, which is digital connected to my modified AVM DAC 1.2 (with the 2x PCM63-Y). The receiver enable 96KHz incoming signal and all in all it seems that I am listening practically to 48KHz/20bit. The fascinating things here: this signal is miles better than the 96/24 analog-out from the Ronald into my preamp.
In other words: the PCM63 (-Y) is still an amazingly good PCM. I hope that the K2 is still a good investment as well.
Greetings,
IJ
Hi again,
No, it was not me who have a 4x DAC with PCM63- (K, or K2, or KY, or Y...); other mamber(s) here were dealing with it; if I'm not wrong it was about the full symetric Pass DAC 1.
As for the extra 47 US$ for upgrading to K2 - this might make sense; however one should keep in mind that each chip is quite unique and can sound different even when at the same grade. I choose a pair of excellent "Y" from about 5 different "Y" chips - after listening to each of them by its own.
BTW, A differenz subject that meanwhile got major attention is the 24/96 signal (source). Now, while the PCM63 is capable of max 48/20 (hope I still remember the numbers correctly!), what I can tell you is that it is s very capable chip: I am using a Ronald Edirol 24/96 HD recorder to record live classical music. Now, for playback I am usind the card via my labtop, which is digital connected to my modified AVM DAC 1.2 (with the 2x PCM63-Y). The receiver enable 96KHz incoming signal and all in all it seems that I am listening practically to 48KHz/20bit. The fascinating things here: this signal is miles better than the 96/24 analog-out from the Ronald into my preamp.
In other words: the PCM63 (-Y) is still an amazingly good PCM. I hope that the K2 is still a good investment as well.
Greetings,
IJ
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