I am already buiding, simulating and tweaking.
I am using NAD3220 as reference... the starting point..the topology to be tweaked, modified and tested to see will be released or not.
As people is trying some nice conversations about into the Precision Thread and into the Dx Amplifier thread, i have opened this one to make people free to talk whatever folks wants to coment about.
I have researched a lot.... about everything published into our forum, into Reviews, Magazines Reviews, Test Reviews, schematics and also into the Google.... everything was readed.
Now i have something built and sounding.... 24 hours playing and already received several modifications..... i am not happy with the sonics i am listening today...will work to make it better.... or, at least will try.
Mufled..strange trebles.... a little bit boomy.
Nice sound stage, focus and reasonable presence of mids.... dinamics interesting but saturates very easy as do not use Differential amplifier into the input.
regards,
Carlos
I am using NAD3220 as reference... the starting point..the topology to be tweaked, modified and tested to see will be released or not.
As people is trying some nice conversations about into the Precision Thread and into the Dx Amplifier thread, i have opened this one to make people free to talk whatever folks wants to coment about.
I have researched a lot.... about everything published into our forum, into Reviews, Magazines Reviews, Test Reviews, schematics and also into the Google.... everything was readed.
Now i have something built and sounding.... 24 hours playing and already received several modifications..... i am not happy with the sonics i am listening today...will work to make it better.... or, at least will try.
Mufled..strange trebles.... a little bit boomy.
Nice sound stage, focus and reasonable presence of mids.... dinamics interesting but saturates very easy as do not use Differential amplifier into the input.
regards,
Carlos
It is not a virtual amplifier, not only simulations
Was assembled, exists in real life.
40 volts for a while, and difference supplies to the input are unders test.... Output is around 125 watts..... well.... this is the start of the whole thing.... the power decision is for the future.
regards,
Carlos
Was assembled, exists in real life.
40 volts for a while, and difference supplies to the input are unders test.... Output is around 125 watts..... well.... this is the start of the whole thing.... the power decision is for the future.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Today it is this way, tomorrow will be different
Maybe will be unrecognizable in a month.
I am trying ideas, and listening to them.
I will not try ALL ideas people is offering, but i may try some....no guarantee to try ideas posted.... so, put them here because your own will...no deal made!
Carlos
Maybe will be unrecognizable in a month.
I am trying ideas, and listening to them.
I will not try ALL ideas people is offering, but i may try some....no guarantee to try ideas posted.... so, put them here because your own will...no deal made!
Carlos
Hello all,
Carlos is not trying to make a kind of powerfull HR II, he'll try to get his big brother or his fat cousin, at least.
Using some new ideas to make some new amps. This is just a way to get fun à la manière de Carlos. Nothing more, nothing less.
We are justing after your measurement, hum, feelings.
Panzer DX, the one who needs a fan around twice than the roomsize !
Max
Carlos is not trying to make a kind of powerfull HR II, he'll try to get his big brother or his fat cousin, at least.
Using some new ideas to make some new amps. This is just a way to get fun à la manière de Carlos. Nothing more, nothing less.
We are justing after your measurement, hum, feelings.
Panzer DX, the one who needs a fan around twice than the roomsize !
Max
Relax Nordic, not needing help, i will do this by myself, having fun only
You have made a lot...you can ask the Dx Corporation retirement that will turn you a very precious and important counselor.
Dx Standard, HRII and Precision I is past.... now going to the future.
a la manière du Charles!... some audio challenges.... some curiosity to kill, some strange designs to listen too... fun!... 100 percent pure fun!
It is beeing interesting... this amplifier was so famous, and now i am understanding the reasons... why people like it so much.
Vive la France!
á bientôt
Charles
You have made a lot...you can ask the Dx Corporation retirement that will turn you a very precious and important counselor.
Dx Standard, HRII and Precision I is past.... now going to the future.
a la manière du Charles!... some audio challenges.... some curiosity to kill, some strange designs to listen too... fun!... 100 percent pure fun!
It is beeing interesting... this amplifier was so famous, and now i am understanding the reasons... why people like it so much.
Vive la France!
á bientôt
Charles
I said no guarantee to assemble, listen and compare your schematic
Because they are hundreds.... many folks have ideas, have no time to build or have no will to build....so... those may run to me if i offer to test everything.
I am in the third stage of my audiophile evolution.... first stage was to build everything and listen and test, and compare with something.
Second stage was to design, to make mine since the early beginning..just selecting one topology and the most used voltage....to make my own.
Third stage, the one i am starting now... alike Japanese did into the sixties...and Chinese doing rigth now.... selecting good international designs, testing them and tweaking them...so... a big save, enormous economy of time... have not the time of development and not the costs of development....just select one good and tweak...some small modification can make, even better, already famous and well known designs.
I am in this level...interested to famous ones.... the ones sell hundreds, or thousands or million of units...to listen those ones, to copy those ones and to tweak those ones (or try) for sonics.
If i have opened to build any schematic folks have produced, i would turn crazy with that..so many would come.... creative folks sit in from of the computer, and produces 100 schematics a day..and they build no one.
regards,
Carlos
Because they are hundreds.... many folks have ideas, have no time to build or have no will to build....so... those may run to me if i offer to test everything.
I am in the third stage of my audiophile evolution.... first stage was to build everything and listen and test, and compare with something.
Second stage was to design, to make mine since the early beginning..just selecting one topology and the most used voltage....to make my own.
Third stage, the one i am starting now... alike Japanese did into the sixties...and Chinese doing rigth now.... selecting good international designs, testing them and tweaking them...so... a big save, enormous economy of time... have not the time of development and not the costs of development....just select one good and tweak...some small modification can make, even better, already famous and well known designs.
I am in this level...interested to famous ones.... the ones sell hundreds, or thousands or million of units...to listen those ones, to copy those ones and to tweak those ones (or try) for sonics.
If i have opened to build any schematic folks have produced, i would turn crazy with that..so many would come.... creative folks sit in from of the computer, and produces 100 schematics a day..and they build no one.
regards,
Carlos
Hi Carlos,
Tudo bem contigo??
For this circuit i suggest use a cfp as input transistor. There is a good criteria on how you should select the two trannies for best linearity but it will be too long for me to explain here. Ill make a copy of a document i have and send it to your mail. There is also other info regarding cfp pairs - regarding transconduction harmonic signiture and comparing their use against single trannies and jfets in ltp stages.
Maybe these things were covered in dr Selfs book, i dont know havent read it. This was by someone else but i cannot recall the name now.
By the way i like the sound of jfets, how about one here on input????
Good luck with this circuit, twenty years ago they sounded ok to me, but very inferior to a JLH amp i bought as a kit to build when i was a teenager..... no not the famous JLH class a Amp, a 100 watt A/AB i think it was. Also built a JLH pre-amp, to think of it it very much miss that preamp, it was glorious. Nordic lives out that way, maybe i should contact him and see if the shop i bought those kits still exists.
Carlos have you tried cascoded current mirror on P1 Ltp. These have two main benefits sound wise :
Two transistor mirrors tend to compress the sound and even using very large hfe trannies doesnt help that much, this does.
Brings the Ltp collector currents closer to balance which not only drops the distortion (2nd but also 3rd and higher harmonics too) but is also essential in obtaining good precise sounstage in this topology.
For all the other EEs here, yes their are other benefits, but lets keep this simple and more related to the sound than the electronic theories.
Alex
Tudo bem contigo??
For this circuit i suggest use a cfp as input transistor. There is a good criteria on how you should select the two trannies for best linearity but it will be too long for me to explain here. Ill make a copy of a document i have and send it to your mail. There is also other info regarding cfp pairs - regarding transconduction harmonic signiture and comparing their use against single trannies and jfets in ltp stages.
Maybe these things were covered in dr Selfs book, i dont know havent read it. This was by someone else but i cannot recall the name now.
By the way i like the sound of jfets, how about one here on input????
Good luck with this circuit, twenty years ago they sounded ok to me, but very inferior to a JLH amp i bought as a kit to build when i was a teenager..... no not the famous JLH class a Amp, a 100 watt A/AB i think it was. Also built a JLH pre-amp, to think of it it very much miss that preamp, it was glorious. Nordic lives out that way, maybe i should contact him and see if the shop i bought those kits still exists.
Carlos have you tried cascoded current mirror on P1 Ltp. These have two main benefits sound wise :
Two transistor mirrors tend to compress the sound and even using very large hfe trannies doesnt help that much, this does.
Brings the Ltp collector currents closer to balance which not only drops the distortion (2nd but also 3rd and higher harmonics too) but is also essential in obtaining good precise sounstage in this topology.
For all the other EEs here, yes their are other benefits, but lets keep this simple and more related to the sound than the electronic theories.
Alex
Hello Carlos
TNT Audio did talk a bit about the NAD 3220;
---The NAD 3220 PE was the natural evolution of the legendary NAD 3020. It was actually very similar to its ancestor, except for the fact it offered a very high dynamic power, supplied by the Power Envelope circuit, a device that, like a turbocharger
, gave an extra kick of raw energy during musical transients.
I still believe the best NAD amp was the 3020 and the brother 3120 but the 3220 PE performed quite well, sounding way more powerful and lively than its claimed power would have suggested.
If you find a 3220 for 100-150 $, buy it, you won't be disappointed.
Lucio Cadeddu----
And here is a quite detaille analyse NAD 3020;
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/nad3020e.html
Bye
Gaetan
TNT Audio did talk a bit about the NAD 3220;
---The NAD 3220 PE was the natural evolution of the legendary NAD 3020. It was actually very similar to its ancestor, except for the fact it offered a very high dynamic power, supplied by the Power Envelope circuit, a device that, like a turbocharger
, gave an extra kick of raw energy during musical transients.I still believe the best NAD amp was the 3020 and the brother 3120 but the 3220 PE performed quite well, sounding way more powerful and lively than its claimed power would have suggested.
If you find a 3220 for 100-150 $, buy it, you won't be disappointed.
Lucio Cadeddu----
And here is a quite detaille analyse NAD 3020;
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/nad3020e.html
Bye
Gaetan
I have readed all that stuff dear Gaetan.
Thank you by the kindness to help.
Sorry the picture Gaetan.... Canon Camera is broken, now using old Kodak, no zoom, no macro, no resolution.
I have built the 3020 and 3220 circuits in my home....here is the image... already very modified.
regards,
Carlos
Thank you by the kindness to help.
Sorry the picture Gaetan.... Canon Camera is broken, now using old Kodak, no zoom, no macro, no resolution.
I have built the 3020 and 3220 circuits in my home....here is the image... already very modified.
regards,
Carlos
Attachments
Hello everybody
For those who want to know more or to fix the NAD 3020 or the NAD 3220, they are both two in that service manual;
http://www.schematicsforfree.com/archive/file/Audio/PRODUCTS/AMPLIFIERS-INTEGRATED/NAD 3020.PDF
Gaetan
For those who want to know more or to fix the NAD 3020 or the NAD 3220, they are both two in that service manual;
http://www.schematicsforfree.com/archive/file/Audio/PRODUCTS/AMPLIFIERS-INTEGRATED/NAD 3020.PDF
Gaetan
Hi
Just came over from the other thread. So nice of Ebbe to give me that schematic for the 3150 -- been looking for that for a long time. It's very crowded inside, so I was never too keen too try and fix it 100% -- now maybe I can.
3150 (standard topology, jfets, opamps) is very different from the 3020 (current feedback).
I have a soft spot for 3020 -- had one when I was young -- nice memories, good sound, LP records, loud parties
I was wondering something -- 3020s are said to be warm and sweet sounding. Is that what people said about the sound all those years ago, or is that new thing? I don't remember warm & sweet as a description back then.
Just came over from the other thread. So nice of Ebbe to give me that schematic for the 3150 -- been looking for that for a long time. It's very crowded inside, so I was never too keen too try and fix it 100% -- now maybe I can.
3150 (standard topology, jfets, opamps) is very different from the 3020 (current feedback).
I have a soft spot for 3020 -- had one when I was young -- nice memories, good sound, LP records, loud parties
I was wondering something -- 3020s are said to be warm and sweet sounding. Is that what people said about the sound all those years ago, or is that new thing? I don't remember warm & sweet as a description back then.
Yes...i found it warm and sweet.... loud bass and a little bit mufled.
nice dinamics of power, but saturates very fast... voice not very good... sound stage an focus interesting.
But all i have is my board, the power amplifier, and already modified...not more mufled and i have reduced the bass and now increasing treble.
regards,
Carlos
nice dinamics of power, but saturates very fast... voice not very good... sound stage an focus interesting.
But all i have is my board, the power amplifier, and already modified...not more mufled and i have reduced the bass and now increasing treble.
regards,
Carlos
The schematic, at least the power amplifier, is almost the same
Andrew.... so, may sound alike.... depends from the pré amplifier of course..but power is almost the same with other supply voltage..have twice the power compared to the 3020 and 3220..both or those old folks around 20 to 30 watts into specifications.
Mine is beeing tested with 42 volts... power is huge...more than 125 watts RMS over 4 ohms.... but just studying...have no conclusion about..now tweaking...when ready will be compared with many others.
I am " on the go " for a while... feeling the sound good but strange...there's something strange on it.
regards,
Carlos
Andrew.... so, may sound alike.... depends from the pré amplifier of course..but power is almost the same with other supply voltage..have twice the power compared to the 3020 and 3220..both or those old folks around 20 to 30 watts into specifications.
Mine is beeing tested with 42 volts... power is huge...more than 125 watts RMS over 4 ohms.... but just studying...have no conclusion about..now tweaking...when ready will be compared with many others.
I am " on the go " for a while... feeling the sound good but strange...there's something strange on it.
regards,
Carlos
Yup -- I was wrong, only had a quick look and saw LTP on the phono.
Stage. The 3150 is also current feedback! -- cool, rare.
I really cannot remember in detail the sonics of the amp. This was like 1982-83 or so. But I remember listening to a lot off large dramatic orchestral classical music through it. Which is not my usual taste. I mostly listened to Rock music then. I liked it -- was clean, clear and did it's job.
When I get time I'll work on my 3150. It's old -- I got it used, and I think the previous owner abused it. One (power amp) channel occasionally distorts very bad (like a guitar fuzz pedal -- NOT subtle). I've also noticed Bass problems on the pre amp (like putting lips together and blowing through tongue to be rude -- a raspberry). Sometimes when switching on.; it squawks, shrieks eeeeeeeeeee (through speakers). Weird noises when it goes off too. I think the pots are kind of dying too.
Stage. The 3150 is also current feedback! -- cool, rare.
I really cannot remember in detail the sonics of the amp. This was like 1982-83 or so. But I remember listening to a lot off large dramatic orchestral classical music through it. Which is not my usual taste. I mostly listened to Rock music then. I liked it -- was clean, clear and did it's job.
When I get time I'll work on my 3150. It's old -- I got it used, and I think the previous owner abused it. One (power amp) channel occasionally distorts very bad (like a guitar fuzz pedal -- NOT subtle). I've also noticed Bass problems on the pre amp (like putting lips together and blowing through tongue to be rude -- a raspberry). Sometimes when switching on.; it squawks, shrieks eeeeeeeeeee (through speakers). Weird noises when it goes off too. I think the pots are kind of dying too.
hehehe..... i think this is nice to repair
I love to do those things... cleanings and debugging...off set adjustments, bias... old condenser substitution..ehehe...lovely work.... to clean switches and potentiometers using that special spray used to clean contacts... panel and upper cover cleaned using using WD40.
I love to do that..... enjoy man.
All you need may be cleaning... fuse holders... those things.
regards,
Carlos
I love to do those things... cleanings and debugging...off set adjustments, bias... old condenser substitution..ehehe...lovely work.... to clean switches and potentiometers using that special spray used to clean contacts... panel and upper cover cleaned using using WD40.
I love to do that..... enjoy man.
All you need may be cleaning... fuse holders... those things.
regards,
Carlos
Some things I remembered:
3020 Has a smallish heatsink, it gets VERY hot at listing volume. (Scary hot).
3150 Idles warm/hot. More than normal. It has two good-size transformers, It's Heavy, 50hz Bass bump button.
Carlos -- are you using a regulated supply?
-----------
I soetimes spray the pots with de-oxit but they quickly get scratchy again. I think their time is up.
3020 Has a smallish heatsink, it gets VERY hot at listing volume. (Scary hot).
3150 Idles warm/hot. More than normal. It has two good-size transformers, It's Heavy, 50hz Bass bump button.
Carlos -- are you using a regulated supply?
-----------
I soetimes spray the pots with de-oxit but they quickly get scratchy again. I think their time is up.
I have tried the regulated supply and different voltages, the way you see into the
schematic, but have not found anything better using them... now i am trying without it...but this is alike today picture, tomorrow the regulator can go to the board once again.
You know, the regulator have not show me sound differences when the amplifier is the way it is now, in this moment...the way the schematic is now....but tomorrow, the schematic will be different and i will check this once again.
I have not that treble focus i have dream...not having the focus, the rail regulation do not appear.... keep hide....... when i found a better treble i will include the regulators, then they will show their qualities.... was the same sound using those rail regulators and the same sound without them,.... but this today.
I do not know if i could communicate what i mean..... now the language is a big barrier.
This is something alike an old car, those ones have a lot of noises when running...not motor noises, but panel noises, door noises and back seat noises... then you replace the muffler by a new one, your old muffler had not a hole on it...just old and have lost some steel foam material has inside to absorb sound, not only the channels and tunnels inside, not only the holes but the absorving and muffling material we can have inside old muffler, Volkswagen style muffler, beetle muffler..... after replacement, noises reduced, but the automobile panels, doors and all stuff continues to produces noises... the advantage can be perceived but not too much... a matter of threshold.... this is the sittuation... the regulators, rail regulators behave alike the substituted muffler into this analogy.
The treble is sounding better, but already alike music playing into the next room, as listening througth a hole... sound is not here...not next to me...not from the speaker... distant...not present.... has not presence.
The level is fair...not loosing into levels.... would be good if was only this way...i have increased and i can increase more, using equalizers, selective filter into the input, resistive attenuator and blending capacitors...but the problem is not level... worse than that.
The unit is starting to loose level into 50 Kilohertz, do not believe this is the problem, but will change it to start to loose into 150 Kilohertz to see if this will change some. (3 decibel point).
The huge perceived bass into 40 hertz may produce this listening effect...will reduce bass level tomorrow to see if this will happens.... phase.... i am having some phase cancelling maybe..do not know exactly where.
regards,
Carlos
schematic, but have not found anything better using them... now i am trying without it...but this is alike today picture, tomorrow the regulator can go to the board once again.
You know, the regulator have not show me sound differences when the amplifier is the way it is now, in this moment...the way the schematic is now....but tomorrow, the schematic will be different and i will check this once again.
I have not that treble focus i have dream...not having the focus, the rail regulation do not appear.... keep hide....... when i found a better treble i will include the regulators, then they will show their qualities.... was the same sound using those rail regulators and the same sound without them,.... but this today.
I do not know if i could communicate what i mean..... now the language is a big barrier.
This is something alike an old car, those ones have a lot of noises when running...not motor noises, but panel noises, door noises and back seat noises... then you replace the muffler by a new one, your old muffler had not a hole on it...just old and have lost some steel foam material has inside to absorb sound, not only the channels and tunnels inside, not only the holes but the absorving and muffling material we can have inside old muffler, Volkswagen style muffler, beetle muffler..... after replacement, noises reduced, but the automobile panels, doors and all stuff continues to produces noises... the advantage can be perceived but not too much... a matter of threshold.... this is the sittuation... the regulators, rail regulators behave alike the substituted muffler into this analogy.
The treble is sounding better, but already alike music playing into the next room, as listening througth a hole... sound is not here...not next to me...not from the speaker... distant...not present.... has not presence.
The level is fair...not loosing into levels.... would be good if was only this way...i have increased and i can increase more, using equalizers, selective filter into the input, resistive attenuator and blending capacitors...but the problem is not level... worse than that.
The unit is starting to loose level into 50 Kilohertz, do not believe this is the problem, but will change it to start to loose into 150 Kilohertz to see if this will change some. (3 decibel point).
The huge perceived bass into 40 hertz may produce this listening effect...will reduce bass level tomorrow to see if this will happens.... phase.... i am having some phase cancelling maybe..do not know exactly where.
regards,
Carlos
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