serenechaos said:
Thanks for your comments. I wish I had the privilege of hearing 12 dipole speakers in a day! I heard two (other than my own) and I wasn't 100% convinced but later decided to try them out...
My findings re. detail are the opposite of yours and I'd dearly love to know why. Were all of these dipoles set up in bare / acoustically-poor rooms?
Simon
SimontY said:
If you get a chance, go to RMAF next year.
There will be at least that many there, in various configurations if that's what you want to listen to, and 10 times that many other things to compare to...
I went last year also, and that generality was a constant.
"bare / acoustically-poor rooms?"
All variations...
everything from no treatment, to diffusers only, to absorbers only, to both.
"active or passive?"
Both. Tube and SS.
The best example to me, that sticks in my mind, was last year.
Lowther drivers in OBs, well treated room, absorbers along sidewalls, basstrap alcove in back.
I so wanted it to sound good, I kept going back, but couldn't stay in the room...
Across the hall, Lowthers in FLHs, less room treatment, just some diffusers on the rear wall.
I really liked the sound in this room, other than the narrow sweet spot.
Robert
I heard the Orions at RMAF this year, and didn't care for them.
They were nice, polite, no big faults - but they just left me cold. Some of the soft focus as mentioned above - and also they just seemed so "polite" that they were unengaging.
I had a chat about the subject with Mr. Linkwitz out in the hall. He does not reference other speakers in voicing his design, just live music. And we agreed that live music is often much more subtle than we give it credit.
But for me, the Orions did not capture the feeling or the excitement of being at a concert. They just didn't sound "alive."
That said, the friend who was with me said he had heard the Orions in a home in Baltimore and they sounded much, much better. So go figure......
They were nice, polite, no big faults - but they just left me cold. Some of the soft focus as mentioned above - and also they just seemed so "polite" that they were unengaging.
I had a chat about the subject with Mr. Linkwitz out in the hall. He does not reference other speakers in voicing his design, just live music. And we agreed that live music is often much more subtle than we give it credit.
But for me, the Orions did not capture the feeling or the excitement of being at a concert. They just didn't sound "alive."
That said, the friend who was with me said he had heard the Orions in a home in Baltimore and they sounded much, much better. So go figure......
panomaniac said:
This is another aspect to the Orions that really make them stand out - SL's use of live music as his primary reference. While it makes it difficult for those of us who are used to using audiophile catch phrases, it allows for a much more objective comparison.
It also seriously raises the bar for the need for high quality recordings, because the Orion's are meant to reproduce the 'original event' - which is not how most albums are recorded, and hence, most albums cannot be used to judge the Orion's performance (yes, the Orions still sounded very good with anything I threw at them, doing better than any other speaker I've known).
This is something that has me very excited as someone who records music, particularly live music. There is something that happens during a good live performance, that cannot be recreated in a studio, something very alive and very provocative, and I am very interested in being able to convey that aliveness to other people. The Orion's are a huge step forward in doing that.
When it comes to making high quality unprocessed recordings, there are some pretty complicated interactions between room acoustics, microphones and how our brains process sound that make recording very much an art. For each room, set of performers, and microphones, there is a different setup necessary, and requires a lot of skill and technology to be able to get it 'right'. This is one of the weakest links in terms of high quality reproduction of music.
If anyone is interested in the Orions (and I think many people should be), the best way to judge them is over time in a known setting. Not easy, but likely very rewarding.
Yes, so polite as to be unengaging.panomaniac said:
To the point that my mind always wandered away from the music, to the technical details, the crossover construction, etc...
One of the "gotchas" that speakers I like have about them is when I try to listen to technical details, I get lost in the music...
Nothing like live music, never the illusion that there was a piano in the room with you, etc.
They did seem very accurate, and I do see where they could be useful in a studio for monitering when you get used to them, (they may translate well) just like NS10s and Mackie 824s are, but I don't listen to them for enjoyment either.
Fascinating to hear all these varying opinions of what a good speaker is. I'm quite new to the dipole sound and until now had not heard a bad word about the idea. For me, using cheap drivers, in a small room, it seems unbeatable.... I wish my audition of the Orions had been with familiar music. I can't really have an opinion on them, other than to say things like drums were stunningly accurate, like I've heard no other speaker manage.
Simon
Simon
chrisb03 said:
1% inductors and 2% capacitors for the 120 and 1440Hz cross-overs would not be cheap, especially with the notch and all-pass filters. If you somehow managed to stay ahead while building the cross-over (maybe you'll wind the inductors by hand?), after you pad down the high frequency sensitivity the the price tag on the 10,000 Watt amplifier you'll need to need to match the active system's peak output levels will more than offset the savings.
If you're looking to save money, 8 channels of LM3886 with small heat sinks and a 20VAC transformer with resistors and three-terminal regulators providing a split supply for your cross-over opamps are going to be less expensive than a passive cross-over.
Most caps and coils seem much tighter than the typically-stated 5%, but you have a good point re. power. It would be an interesting load for an amp I guess.
Just driving the Peerless woofers with a separate amp to the mids and tweeter might be an option though, and with only one active crossover it'd be easy and cheap to do it with discrete circuitry.
Simon
Just driving the Peerless woofers with a separate amp to the mids and tweeter might be an option though, and with only one active crossover it'd be easy and cheap to do it with discrete circuitry.
Simon
It would be faily easy to convert the Orion to a hybrid design, like the NaO, with passive crossover between midrange and tweeter. Of course, SL would no longer want such a speaker referred to as an Orion. There is no need to low tolerances. Low tolerance components are used to assure that, for example, if you build 100 circuits they will all perfrom similarly within the tolerances. With a one-off crossover all that is necessary is to match components.
Well, to borrow from the NaO design concept there would still be an active crossover between the woofer and mid/tweeter section. That active crossover would, for the mid/tweeter section, include the HP mid/woofer crossover, the required dipole eq for the midrange, and could also include the mid/woofer offset correction (which actually isn't really necessary at all). Thus the mid/tweeter passive crossover reduces that that which would be encountered for a typical 2-way system. The notch filter for the W22 can be implemented passively, and the tweeter delay/offset correction can handled in a variety of ways.
I'm not saying the transfer functions would be 100% identical to the active Orion circuits, but sufficient close to have performance effectively unaltered.
I'm not saying the transfer functions would be 100% identical to the active Orion circuits, but sufficient close to have performance effectively unaltered.
The XO seems so complex to me (I have no experience). I am wondering whether the orions are a little too difficult to for me. I read somewhere that the seas 8inch driver needs a notch filter. If you use a DSP unit such as a deqx, would this be just as good as the Orion ASP? I know it is alot more expensive, but you can reuse it for future active speakers.
Now I am not sure if the Gedes Summa is an option. What is everyones opinion of the Summa, Orion vs NAO?
Thanks
Chris
Now I am not sure if the Gedes Summa is an option. What is everyones opinion of the Summa, Orion vs NAO?
Thanks
Chris
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