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I've been tempted to try a 2-way, having only every DIY'd full range speakers before. But I have read a lot of opinion about the perils of having a cross-over in that critical frequency range of 1kHz to 3kHz, the so-called telephone band. My ears are quite sensitive to this range, like most people. So I have always kept well away, preferring instead to consider a full range driver with woofer support and a cross-over below 300Hz. I also tend to prefer the sound of OB (or more properly, open backed box). But I can't reconcile these concerns so easily with reports of satisfaction from the classic 2-way with woofer + tweeter in a box.
Neither can I, but who cares I know what I like. I used to ask my wife to give me opinions and I'd try to use my poker face. The most common reply is no, they both sound good.. Can she tell the difference? or maybe it's what SY wrote about a while back?
Then there's the fact that my speakers sounded good to me years ago, but if I had to listen to those again now, I'd have a lot to complain about. When someone says their speakers sound great, I believe it's true for them and could be one of the two above points of view, but I also like to look at the configuration.
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I have some commercial floor-standers, one pair is 2-way the other 3-way and both narrow with 6" woofer. They sound very clean, accurate and powerful. They were great for loud powerful music like Pink Floyd using a high quality SS amp but I had listener fatigue after several hours which drove me 'into the arms' of the full range club looking for something different. My first foray there was with a Foster driver with cone break up that gave me listening fatigue like no other but I moved on to other drivers since then which are sensitive enough for tube amps and sound pretty good (Audio Nirvana 15").
I haven't heard a modern speaker like the Orangutan - a wide baffle large woofer + tweeter combo. In my younger years I had some AR38's, which are perhaps a good example of a large woofer + tweeter; they sounded fine but they wouldn't hold a candle to anything made today.
The only other 2-way I heard once that I liked was a Totem stand-mount speaker; it was very nice but lacking a solid low-end to give foundation to the sound. I did once hear some JBL floor standers driven by a KRELL but it had something going on in the treble that wasn't nice.
So - perhaps I need to go out and have a listen to some Orangutan's if I'm ever near a place that has a pair.
I haven't heard a modern speaker like the Orangutan - a wide baffle large woofer + tweeter combo. In my younger years I had some AR38's, which are perhaps a good example of a large woofer + tweeter; they sounded fine but they wouldn't hold a candle to anything made today.
The only other 2-way I heard once that I liked was a Totem stand-mount speaker; it was very nice but lacking a solid low-end to give foundation to the sound. I did once hear some JBL floor standers driven by a KRELL but it had something going on in the treble that wasn't nice.
So - perhaps I need to go out and have a listen to some Orangutan's if I'm ever near a place that has a pair.
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Minimal crossovers aren't my cup of tea. The cone breakup from the bass around 4-5kHz and the demand (distortion) on the tweeters are just too much. But with the right bass, with a natural rolloff it can be done.
What is good about them? Well, usually that they get most things right, including phase alignment. Usually positive polarity on the tweeter.
8" plus tweeter on first order lines up well around 3.5kHz XO.
10" plus tweeter second order lines up particularly well on phase with 2.2kHz XO. It looks very good on paper.
Here's the SEAS Njord kit, with 8" CA21REX bass and a fairly regular SEAS 25mm tweeter. A modern equivalent would be the SEAS CA22RNX.
What is good about them? Well, usually that they get most things right, including phase alignment. Usually positive polarity on the tweeter.
8" plus tweeter on first order lines up well around 3.5kHz XO.
10" plus tweeter second order lines up particularly well on phase with 2.2kHz XO. It looks very good on paper.
Here's the SEAS Njord kit, with 8" CA21REX bass and a fairly regular SEAS 25mm tweeter. A modern equivalent would be the SEAS CA22RNX.
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Hi,
There is nothing fairly regular about the 25TFFC tweeter.
A modern equivalent is very hard to find. Its early well
damped roll-off allows a single capacitor crossover.
rgds, sreten.
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The FR plot of the woofer looks terrible, there's a huge peak and an awful mess after it just where you are suggesting to put the XO ?
Boys, the SEAS Njord is a rough and ready sort of speaker to my mind. I can do better, but I'm sticking to the theme here of an 8" paper bass on simple crossover. The CA21REX is quite a famous old high efficiency unit which found its way into a lot of speakers in various forms.
High Efficiency Speakers
The SEAS CA22RNX is quite similar, enough so that you could simply give it about 1.8mH and match it up with the quite easy to find SEAS 29TFF/W, and you will be true to the tested SEAS Njord idea. Not rocket science. You probably change the resistive padding on the tweeter, that's all.
This 25TFFC just looks your regular sort of FF SEAS dome to me:
http://www.seas.no/images/stories/vintage/pdfdataheet/h0519_25tffc.pdf
The Njord will probably have a bit of a lump at 3kHz, but you won't hear that off-axis. TBH, a polycone might work better in theory. But it's all tradeoffs.
High Efficiency Speakers
The SEAS CA22RNX is quite similar, enough so that you could simply give it about 1.8mH and match it up with the quite easy to find SEAS 29TFF/W, and you will be true to the tested SEAS Njord idea. Not rocket science. You probably change the resistive padding on the tweeter, that's all.
This 25TFFC just looks your regular sort of FF SEAS dome to me:
http://www.seas.no/images/stories/vintage/pdfdataheet/h0519_25tffc.pdf
The Njord will probably have a bit of a lump at 3kHz, but you won't hear that off-axis. TBH, a polycone might work better in theory. But it's all tradeoffs.
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Simple crossovers require nice behaving drivers.
Look at the seas a26re4, maybe close to orangutan, used in seas a26 kit.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-10-woofers/seas-prestige-a26re4-h1411-10-paper-cone/
Pretty flat for $160, and -6db @ 2khz, no crossover needed.
Now roll in a tweet with single cap so it is 6db down at 2khz, and you are done (after padding it down).
Ideally slide tweet back to line up centers.
To me, a 6db crossover can be better than a full range.
Cleaner highs, goes lower, goes louder, and better detail.
I remember 6moons liked the gemme audio tanto (6" + single capped tweet) better than a fostex fe108ez blh thing.
Some are sensitive to time alignment (phase), some it doesn't bother.
I'm playing with dayton horn loaded dome 2khz@24db active crossover.
Not morel, but 1/4 the cost........
This is a sleeper.
ND25FW-4 1" Soft Dome Neodymium Tweeter with Waveguide 4 Ohm Specification Sheet
One speaker, Single 6.5" (sealed qtc maybe .55, f3 maybe 100hz) on slab floor and me on floor @ 5ft is nice.
Certainly far better than $48 worth of parts.
Look at the seas a26re4, maybe close to orangutan, used in seas a26 kit.
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-10-woofers/seas-prestige-a26re4-h1411-10-paper-cone/
Pretty flat for $160, and -6db @ 2khz, no crossover needed.
Now roll in a tweet with single cap so it is 6db down at 2khz, and you are done (after padding it down).
Ideally slide tweet back to line up centers.
To me, a 6db crossover can be better than a full range.
Cleaner highs, goes lower, goes louder, and better detail.
I remember 6moons liked the gemme audio tanto (6" + single capped tweet) better than a fostex fe108ez blh thing.
Some are sensitive to time alignment (phase), some it doesn't bother.
I'm playing with dayton horn loaded dome 2khz@24db active crossover.
Not morel, but 1/4 the cost........
This is a sleeper.
ND25FW-4 1" Soft Dome Neodymium Tweeter with Waveguide 4 Ohm Specification Sheet
One speaker, Single 6.5" (sealed qtc maybe .55, f3 maybe 100hz) on slab floor and me on floor @ 5ft is nice.
Certainly far better than $48 worth of parts.
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I looked up the Gemme Audio Tanto for interest. Uses the Vifa XT19 on a single small cap and a loud 4 ohm Silver Flute 6.5".
The 6.5" Silver Flute 4 ohm looks an unlikely candidate to run full range. That FR (and breakup) bump at 5kHz is bad news. See below.
You need a polycone with 6.5" if you are to have any hope of running it fullrange. TBH I don't see any difference between a bass with a simple inductor filter, or a bass with the inductance built into the voicecoil as Epos did.
Notice the review says the Tanto is suitable for acoustic music. Which is shorthand for saying it can't handle the complex stuff. What Lynn Olson calls a "Little Girl With A Guitar" speaker.
The 6.5" Silver Flute 4 ohm looks an unlikely candidate to run full range. That FR (and breakup) bump at 5kHz is bad news. See below.
You need a polycone with 6.5" if you are to have any hope of running it fullrange. TBH I don't see any difference between a bass with a simple inductor filter, or a bass with the inductance built into the voicecoil as Epos did.
Notice the review says the Tanto is suitable for acoustic music. Which is shorthand for saying it can't handle the complex stuff. What Lynn Olson calls a "Little Girl With A Guitar" speaker.
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well.............
the tanto used the 8 ohm shielded.
Flattest of their 6.5", kind of wanders off after 1khz then peaks back up to average level at 5khz. I'm sure a waterfall would show a long trail there. But odougbo has had luck removing the dust cap and said it helps.
definitely not usable wide open nor even a 5khz crossover point.
but sitting on a slab floor, sealed 6.5" (F3 around 100hz) on a slab @5', crossed 24db to horn loaded dome, it passes the audiophile "girl and guitar tests" such as Jennifer Warnes "somewhere somebody" and Sarah McLachlan - Dirty Little Secret. Maybe could be a tad bit crispier I think due to the ferrofluid mucking thing up in the dome tweet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d-2ysDb6WU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNZQtz0ao1I
Magical, but forget bass, forget listening further away, forget pink floyd.
Noticed more of music in backround watching divergent, but no dynamics (obviously), and no bass. Not listenable very long to me due to no bass (my reference is double 15's in a corner).
I suppose it is heading in the right direction because Springsteen's "meeting across the river" sounded wretched.
Maybe I'll have luck with 2 x 6.5" in a pair of mtm tuned to 50hz.
Guess I'm a sub guy or a 3-way with under 150hz crossing over.
Interesting thing was even with the horn loaded dome, front tweet was at least an inch set back from the baffle for alignment, slid it back and the tweet seemed to vanish. When phase was wrong, when I slid tweet back I noticed a big hole, but it was hard to notice a hole with either polarity when the tweet was misaligned or all the way parallel with the front baffle.
the tanto used the 8 ohm shielded.
Flattest of their 6.5", kind of wanders off after 1khz then peaks back up to average level at 5khz. I'm sure a waterfall would show a long trail there. But odougbo has had luck removing the dust cap and said it helps.
definitely not usable wide open nor even a 5khz crossover point.
but sitting on a slab floor, sealed 6.5" (F3 around 100hz) on a slab @5', crossed 24db to horn loaded dome, it passes the audiophile "girl and guitar tests" such as Jennifer Warnes "somewhere somebody" and Sarah McLachlan - Dirty Little Secret. Maybe could be a tad bit crispier I think due to the ferrofluid mucking thing up in the dome tweet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7d-2ysDb6WU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNZQtz0ao1I
Magical, but forget bass, forget listening further away, forget pink floyd.
Noticed more of music in backround watching divergent, but no dynamics (obviously), and no bass. Not listenable very long to me due to no bass (my reference is double 15's in a corner).
I suppose it is heading in the right direction because Springsteen's "meeting across the river" sounded wretched.
Maybe I'll have luck with 2 x 6.5" in a pair of mtm tuned to 50hz.
Guess I'm a sub guy or a 3-way with under 150hz crossing over.
Interesting thing was even with the horn loaded dome, front tweet was at least an inch set back from the baffle for alignment, slid it back and the tweet seemed to vanish. When phase was wrong, when I slid tweet back I noticed a big hole, but it was hard to notice a hole with either polarity when the tweet was misaligned or all the way parallel with the front baffle.
The 8 ohm Silver Flute does look a bit better. I was going by the stated review drivers.
This SEAS polycone (Le=0.25mH) looks quite good for a single, say, 0.6mH coil.
H1571-08 U18RNX/P
I have seen some designs done with that. But higher order tweeter. At least you could notch out the tweeter Fs resonance with a single cap. Works much better by all accounts.
I always think 6.5" bass is a difficult speaker to get sounding good.
This SEAS polycone (Le=0.25mH) looks quite good for a single, say, 0.6mH coil.
H1571-08 U18RNX/P
I have seen some designs done with that. But higher order tweeter. At least you could notch out the tweeter Fs resonance with a single cap. Works much better by all accounts.
I always think 6.5" bass is a difficult speaker to get sounding good.
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