Greets!
I have the published specs for the DP15, but couldn't find any for a 15A, so if different then please post them.
Mms has no effect on transient response, what we want to look at is its relative motor strength, or Qes/Qts and since series R is required to raise the D130's to 'fill' the cab, if its effective Qes/Qts is made the same as the DP15's, then they will have identical transient response in the same alignment. Higher up in its mass controlled BW, its Le sets its HF response up to the point where its break up modes begin if not well damped.
WRT vent area, any amount > what's required to have <5% mach at rated power is overkill, which means the vast majority of Onken systems are extreme overkill.
The DP15's FR indicates up to a ~500 Hz XO without EQ and 1200 Hz XO with, so you've got some options depending on your preferences. The only obvious negative would be the need for some clean SS power for it and digital EQ to keep insertion losses low due to the already mid high Qt (for vented).
GM
I have the published specs for the DP15, but couldn't find any for a 15A, so if different then please post them.
Mms has no effect on transient response, what we want to look at is its relative motor strength, or Qes/Qts and since series R is required to raise the D130's to 'fill' the cab, if its effective Qes/Qts is made the same as the DP15's, then they will have identical transient response in the same alignment. Higher up in its mass controlled BW, its Le sets its HF response up to the point where its break up modes begin if not well damped.
WRT vent area, any amount > what's required to have <5% mach at rated power is overkill, which means the vast majority of Onken systems are extreme overkill.
The DP15's FR indicates up to a ~500 Hz XO without EQ and 1200 Hz XO with, so you've got some options depending on your preferences. The only obvious negative would be the need for some clean SS power for it and digital EQ to keep insertion losses low due to the already mid high Qt (for vented).
GM
Hi GM,
Here are the params for the Eminence Delta Pro 15A:
Fs 42.000 Hz
Re 5.710 ohms
Qms 4.730
Qes 0.440
Qts 0.403
Mms/d 61.000 grams
Sd 8.563E-02 m^2
Rg 0.500 ohms
Cms 2.35E-04
Vas 241.725 litres
Vas*Qts2 45.649
n = 6.250 (best 5.7)
This looks pretty good with my box design limitations in mind..
Interestingly the current Altec 515-HHP8 also gives very good results with an Rg around 9 ohms in the same box and has a slight edge in efficiency, n in this case is 5.7, not the 6.25 shown for the delta pro. I can probably afford these, and do you think the flatter alignment worthwhile?
Here are the Altec TS params
Fs 37.000 Hz
Re 7.900 ohms
Qms 4.500
Qes 0.195
Qts 0.187
Mms/d 53.700 grams
Sd 8.430E-02 m^2
Rg 9.000 ohms
Cms 3.45E-04
Vas 342.907 litres
Vas*Qts2 49.976
n = 5.700 (best 5.7)
These sets of T-S params while different do seem to work within the limits of the box volume, port area and volume and overall required efficiency. The Altec would be a lot more flexible in terms of amplifier matching.
Have I missed something? Cabinets are not ready yet unfortunately..
Thanks
Here are the params for the Eminence Delta Pro 15A:
Fs 42.000 Hz
Re 5.710 ohms
Qms 4.730
Qes 0.440
Qts 0.403
Mms/d 61.000 grams
Sd 8.563E-02 m^2
Rg 0.500 ohms
Cms 2.35E-04
Vas 241.725 litres
Vas*Qts2 45.649
n = 6.250 (best 5.7)
This looks pretty good with my box design limitations in mind..
Interestingly the current Altec 515-HHP8 also gives very good results with an Rg around 9 ohms in the same box and has a slight edge in efficiency, n in this case is 5.7, not the 6.25 shown for the delta pro. I can probably afford these, and do you think the flatter alignment worthwhile?
Here are the Altec TS params
Fs 37.000 Hz
Re 7.900 ohms
Qms 4.500
Qes 0.195
Qts 0.187
Mms/d 53.700 grams
Sd 8.430E-02 m^2
Rg 9.000 ohms
Cms 3.45E-04
Vas 342.907 litres
Vas*Qts2 49.976
n = 5.700 (best 5.7)
These sets of T-S params while different do seem to work within the limits of the box volume, port area and volume and overall required efficiency. The Altec would be a lot more flexible in terms of amplifier matching.
Have I missed something? Cabinets are not ready yet unfortunately..
Thanks
Greets!
OK, these are the same as what's published as the DP15, and not knowing all the details of your cab design, I'll take your word for it that these and the Altecs are a good 'fit'.
What alignment works best in your app mostly depends on the room and where you place them in it and why I recommended a relative huge cab tuned low so that you would have a reasonable amount of tuning flexibility despite the Onken's large fixed vents.
Since genuine Altec drivers are my life-long fave, it's obviously my choice of the bunch, especially since it offers some tuning flexibility in your case, with 515 series LF/midbass horn drivers in my system. BTW, if you choose the Altec, me and the other Altec 'faithful' would appreciate it if you bought one of Iconic's versions since it's the 'real deal', built by ex-Altec employees using original tooling, etc. at Great Plains Audio, whereas you may get ******* knock-offs from Spark-O, err, Altec Lansing Professional.
http://www.iconicspkrs.com/
http://www.iconicspkrs.com/downloads/165series.pdf
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/
I don't know it as fact, but it's my understanding that Iconic's pricing is a bit more budget friendly than ALP to boot.
GM
OK, these are the same as what's published as the DP15, and not knowing all the details of your cab design, I'll take your word for it that these and the Altecs are a good 'fit'.
What alignment works best in your app mostly depends on the room and where you place them in it and why I recommended a relative huge cab tuned low so that you would have a reasonable amount of tuning flexibility despite the Onken's large fixed vents.
Since genuine Altec drivers are my life-long fave, it's obviously my choice of the bunch, especially since it offers some tuning flexibility in your case, with 515 series LF/midbass horn drivers in my system. BTW, if you choose the Altec, me and the other Altec 'faithful' would appreciate it if you bought one of Iconic's versions since it's the 'real deal', built by ex-Altec employees using original tooling, etc. at Great Plains Audio, whereas you may get ******* knock-offs from Spark-O, err, Altec Lansing Professional.
http://www.iconicspkrs.com/
http://www.iconicspkrs.com/downloads/165series.pdf
http://www.greatplainsaudio.com/
I don't know it as fact, but it's my understanding that Iconic's pricing is a bit more budget friendly than ALP to boot.
GM
Hi GM,
I wasn't aware of the difference, but I will definitely check out iconic, thanks for the tip.. Hopefully the TS parameters are the same as for the 515-8HHP.
Just heard back from Altec's northeastern sales rep that the 515 has been discontinued. Waah.. LOL
There is good news however, I have run the TS parameters for the Iconic 165-8G and 165-16G and both are very good matches with just minor tweaking of RG values. The 16G might win slightly in terms of bass extension, but the difference is minute..
Thanks for the tip..
I wasn't aware of the difference, but I will definitely check out iconic, thanks for the tip.. Hopefully the TS parameters are the same as for the 515-8HHP.
Just heard back from Altec's northeastern sales rep that the 515 has been discontinued. Waah.. LOL
There is good news however, I have run the TS parameters for the Iconic 165-8G and 165-16G and both are very good matches with just minor tweaking of RG values. The 16G might win slightly in terms of bass extension, but the difference is minute..
Thanks for the tip..
Greets!
You're welcome!
FYI, substitute '515' for '165' and these are identical to the last 515s the real Altec offered, but they can't use the designation since it was bought by Spark-O-Matic (now ALP). These are way different from the mid '50s 515Bs I have though, which are AlNiCo with ~20 Hz Fs/0.2 Qts/26.7 ft^3 Vas.
Regardless, I believe you'll be very pleased with any of them.
GM
You're welcome!
FYI, substitute '515' for '165' and these are identical to the last 515s the real Altec offered, but they can't use the designation since it was bought by Spark-O-Matic (now ALP). These are way different from the mid '50s 515Bs I have though, which are AlNiCo with ~20 Hz Fs/0.2 Qts/26.7 ft^3 Vas.
Regardless, I believe you'll be very pleased with any of them.
GM
Heard back from Iconic today, I'll definitely be going with the 165-8G and should be ordering a pair shortly. They are expensive, but otoh I can use them in other cabs if I tire of the Onken sound down the road, and they'll certainly outlast me.. LOL
I am starting to get a little clearer on the mids/tweeter issues and I think I will be going with JBL LE75/85 with acoustic lens and the 075 which I am already very familiar with. (I have a pair of speakers with these tweeters.)
APL (Spark-O-Matic) informed me yesterday that the 515-8HHP has been discontinued, today I was contacted by one of their disty (quite local) indicating that they were interested in assisting me. I have made the decision to go with the Iconic at this point, but I'll keep them in mind for other drivers if I decide to build something else in the future.
I am starting to get a little clearer on the mids/tweeter issues and I think I will be going with JBL LE75/85 with acoustic lens and the 075 which I am already very familiar with. (I have a pair of speakers with these tweeters.)
APL (Spark-O-Matic) informed me yesterday that the 515-8HHP has been discontinued, today I was contacted by one of their disty (quite local) indicating that they were interested in assisting me. I have made the decision to go with the Iconic at this point, but I'll keep them in mind for other drivers if I decide to build something else in the future.
Onken cabinet
Hi
Sorry for what may be an inappropriate post but I am desperate to get in touch with GM but cannot email because I am new.
Anyway-I am trying to contact GM because I have recently purchased a pr of Altec 416 8B to use with a trio of ALE drivers and wish to DIY a cabinet for these 416s
HELP PLEASE !!
Thank you
Hi
Sorry for what may be an inappropriate post but I am desperate to get in touch with GM but cannot email because I am new.
Anyway-I am trying to contact GM because I have recently purchased a pr of Altec 416 8B to use with a trio of ALE drivers and wish to DIY a cabinet for these 416s
HELP PLEASE !!
Thank you
Hi,
I want to build onken cabinets for Visaton BG 20. When I put it in calculator everything looks pretty good except I need a huge box for small 8" driver and I don't now how to dimension cabinet. GM gave explanation, but I don't understand it (my English and speaker design knowledge is not so good):
GM please can you give me better explanation how to dimension cabinets, all your posts were very usefull and I like it a lot (something like d=l'+ ..., w = L +..., H=...).
Is this driver suitable for Onkens at all?
Thanks in advance,
Jovan
I want to build onken cabinets for Visaton BG 20. When I put it in calculator everything looks pretty good except I need a huge box for small 8" driver and I don't now how to dimension cabinet. GM gave explanation, but I don't understand it (my English and speaker design knowledge is not so good):
GM said:
GM please can you give me better explanation how to dimension cabinets, all your posts were very usefull and I like it a lot (something like d=l'+ ..., w = L +..., H=...).
Is this driver suitable for Onkens at all?
Thanks in advance,
Jovan
Greets!
Hmm, I don't consider ~85.2 L net all that large and it can be reduced if a < 1:1 SD:vent ratio is used and even more so if you reduce it to a default T/S max flat alignment (n = ~5.7), though of course you'll lose some bass efficiency..........
Anyway, I can, but I'm really busy with numerous other projects, so it will be awhile if no one else offers to help since I don't have anything written down and the Excel spreadsheet I made somehow got corrupted.
GM
Hmm, I don't consider ~85.2 L net all that large and it can be reduced if a < 1:1 SD:vent ratio is used and even more so if you reduce it to a default T/S max flat alignment (n = ~5.7), though of course you'll lose some bass efficiency..........
Anyway, I can, but I'm really busy with numerous other projects, so it will be awhile if no one else offers to help since I don't have anything written down and the Excel spreadsheet I made somehow got corrupted.
GM
GM,
thank you very much for your quick reply.
This project is not urgent, I have 2 pairs of speakers (also full range, one tqwt with fostex 167 and other bass reflex with rto sq-12), but once I had a chance to heard onkens and until than I want to build them because of its deep and natural bass. I will wait until someone help.
I put T/S parameters in calculator from melhuish site (is that your calculator, if it is my still works and I can send you) and here is what I got:
T/S for Visaton BG20: Fs=38Hz, Re=6,2Ohm, Qms=3,47, Qes=0,51, Mms=10g, Sd=214Cm^2,
Results for n=6,34 are:
f3~33hz, Box and vents volume ~ 160l (not 85,2, this is much better, but maybe my calculator is not good), l'=29,6, l=37,8 (this can be different, depending on box dimensions and vent size, this values are with 8 pieces of vents w=1,5cm, height=17,8cm, Svent=213,6cm^2).
Now if I don't consider anything except L', box dimension can be 55,6x89x33,4cm. I will have on both sides 4 tiny vents, and i need to put some space between vents to rich needed height. That was my beginning point, but I didn't consider L (in minionken I think that L is speaker width, that results I get when I put 10c01 driver in calculator), just basic rule for box dimensioning.
Any help would be appreciated,
kind regards,
Jovan
thank you very much for your quick reply.
This project is not urgent, I have 2 pairs of speakers (also full range, one tqwt with fostex 167 and other bass reflex with rto sq-12)
, but once I had a chance to heard onkens and until than I want to build them because of its deep and natural bass. I will wait until someone help.I put T/S parameters in calculator from melhuish site (is that your calculator, if it is my still works and I can send you) and here is what I got:
T/S for Visaton BG20: Fs=38Hz, Re=6,2Ohm, Qms=3,47, Qes=0,51, Mms=10g, Sd=214Cm^2,
Results for n=6,34 are:
f3~33hz, Box and vents volume ~ 160l (not 85,2, this is much better
, but maybe my calculator is not good), l'=29,6, l=37,8 (this can be different, depending on box dimensions and vent size, this values are with 8 pieces of vents w=1,5cm, height=17,8cm, Svent=213,6cm^2).Now if I don't consider anything except L', box dimension can be 55,6x89x33,4cm. I will have on both sides 4 tiny vents, and i need to put some space between vents to rich needed height. That was my beginning point, but I didn't consider L (in minionken I think that L is speaker width, that results I get when I put 10c01 driver in calculator), just basic rule for box dimensioning.
Any help would be appreciated,
kind regards,
Jovan
Hi Jovan,
I'm also a fan of the Onken box, never owned any, but have heard many.
That Excel calculator seems difficult to use. The results are a bit odd, to say the least. Even running known good Onken boxes and drivers, the results of the calculator do not equal the real boxes. At least, I have not been able to make them match.
160L is getting pretty big for an 8" driver, but the Onken boxes are never small. The once popular mini Onken with the 10" Focal driver was smaller than that - somewhere around 100~110L.
It's something to look into, you should be able to find more references to it on the web.
I'm also a fan of the Onken box, never owned any, but have heard many.
That Excel calculator seems difficult to use. The results are a bit odd, to say the least. Even running known good Onken boxes and drivers, the results of the calculator do not equal the real boxes. At least, I have not been able to make them match.
160L is getting pretty big for an 8" driver, but the Onken boxes are never small. The once popular mini Onken with the 10" Focal driver was smaller than that - somewhere around 100~110L.
It's something to look into, you should be able to find more references to it on the web.
panomaniac said:
The numbers generated by the XLS speadsheet are pretty close to WinISD when n=5.7, and Rg=0. After that it's anyones guess.
Do you remember which Focal driver that was?
Jovan,
This is what I get for the BG20:
n = 6.34
Fb = 33.33
L'vent = 24.02
S vent = 180 (15% less than Sd)
V total = 145.34 litres.
Jeff
onken
hello, cyclotronquy, look at www.studiomaudio.info/onken.html
for onken. Succes, my email: sigurd21@gmail.com
hello, cyclotronquy, look at www.studiomaudio.info/onken.html
for onken. Succes, my email: sigurd21@gmail.com
onken
Hallo, cyclotronquy,
For onken look also at :
http://ebenisterie.musique.free.fr/RDS/Divers/Audiophile1977.pdf
also the same address but 1982.pdf
Succes. My email : sigurd21@gmail.com
Hallo, cyclotronquy,
For onken look also at :
http://ebenisterie.musique.free.fr/RDS/Divers/Audiophile1977.pdf
also the same address but 1982.pdf
Succes. My email : sigurd21@gmail.com
Greets!
Hmm, the specs I used were from a bunch of projects done back in 2005 when it became the next 'best' bang/buck FR driver and are considerably different from what you're using, so considering how pleased folks were with the alignments based on them, I have to wonder about how accurate the current published specs are or if they've changed it in the meantime.
That said, considering its low Xmax, using a smaller than theoretically optimum cab tuned to Fs will be more dynamic and protect it better overall, so I'm still liking my original alignment. This assumes of course that there's no significant amount of series resistance due to a SET amp/whatever, otherwise you'll need a bigger cab tuned lower to keep it from sounding 'flabby'.
Anyway, that calculator was done by Cyr-Marc Debien and allowing for rounding off some numbers more and using a different SoS than me, it calcs the same as mine, so I'm satisfied it's plenty accurate enough.
Micheal, in what way does it not reflect actual builds? I mean I used the Onken 360's 416 alignment to confirm mine and Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h kindly proofed it to make doubly sure.
GM
Hmm, the specs I used were from a bunch of projects done back in 2005 when it became the next 'best' bang/buck FR driver and are considerably different from what you're using, so considering how pleased folks were with the alignments based on them, I have to wonder about how accurate the current published specs are or if they've changed it in the meantime.
That said, considering its low Xmax, using a smaller than theoretically optimum cab tuned to Fs will be more dynamic and protect it better overall, so I'm still liking my original alignment. This assumes of course that there's no significant amount of series resistance due to a SET amp/whatever, otherwise you'll need a bigger cab tuned lower to keep it from sounding 'flabby'.
Anyway, that calculator was done by Cyr-Marc Debien and allowing for rounding off some numbers more and using a different SoS than me, it calcs the same as mine, so I'm satisfied it's plenty accurate enough.
Micheal, in what way does it not reflect actual builds? I mean I used the Onken 360's 416 alignment to confirm mine and Jean-Michel Le Cleac'h kindly proofed it to make doubly sure.
GM
GM said:
I tried to reverse calculate several known boxes, but my results did not match the existing boxes. IIRC, tried the mini-Onken, Petit Onken and the 360. The 360 with the Altec 416 was the only one that was fairly close.
But who knows? I was going off publised T/S parameters found on the web, so that could cause of the trouble. Or maybe I just don't understand how the speadsheet works.
Anyhow, finding a match was hard. If I get the time I'll run the sims again and publish my results here for double checking. It would be nice to solve the mystery and find some current driver suited to the Onken/Jensen box.
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