I am new to the forum and let me just say I am blown away by the creativity and expertise demonstrated here. Here's my question: after years of living with Original Large Advents in my main system, I want to move into the full range driver world. Since the space is also shared with a home theater setup, I would like to have bass down into the 40hz range, but it's really a 80/20 music/movie space and most of my listening will be done at night when the kids are down (no Zeppelin). It is 25x15 feet room with two openings on both ends of the long wall. For now my amplification will be a Marantz PM5004 but I will upgrade to tubes in the next 2-3years. I have some experience with saws but will probably employ my local woodworker shop to cut the wood to spec ($60 per hour). Based on my budget constraints of $400, I have narrowed it down to these three designs.
Frugel Horn with Mark Audio Alpair 7
Pensil with Mark Audio Alpair 7
Fostex FE206en in this bass reflex design:My hope is that one of these designs will give me something I don't have with the Advents: wide and deep sound stage, clarity, and mid range. So what say you?
Frugel Horn with Mark Audio Alpair 7
Pensil with Mark Audio Alpair 7
Fostex FE206en in this bass reflex design:My hope is that one of these designs will give me something I don't have with the Advents: wide and deep sound stage, clarity, and mid range. So what say you?
Hi, Dave. Thanks for the input, since I wasn't sure which design had lower bass. But would the Pensil sacrifice anything in imaging/soundstage?
Also, are Alpair 7s like Fostex speakers in that you need a very quick subwoofer for a match? I have a decent Polk Audio sub but am worried it won't integrate very well? Thanks again for your input!
Also, are Alpair 7s like Fostex speakers in that you need a very quick subwoofer for a match? I have a decent Polk Audio sub but am worried it won't integrate very well? Thanks again for your input!
Of many MA and Fostex-driven speakers I've built, the MA A7 Pencils image/soundstage spectacularly and have the sweetest most detailed mids/highs of them all.
But yes, if you'd like to add a subwoofer to the mix, it will need to be fast and light on its feet. You'll likely be surprised, however, at the bass the A7s produce in their Pencil cabinets.
Mario
But yes, if you'd like to add a subwoofer to the mix, it will need to be fast and light on its feet. You'll likely be surprised, however, at the bass the A7s produce in their Pencil cabinets.
Mario
It's not clear from the initial post if these new speakers would be "shared" by the HT system, or in a separate audio only system.
The Pensil MLTL design architecture can easily be adopted with a wide range of driver makes and models - I've built or heard them with several models of Fostex and Mark Audio. The enclosures for smaller drivers such as Alpair7.3 or Fostex FF125WK have the great advantage of very small footprint, which can aid in placement in smaller / cramped spaces.
As Dave notes, in HT rig, the lowest octaves will certainly be handled by separately powered woofers, with the mains / centers high-passed at frequencies optionally as high as 120-150. I've been living with a pair of Pensil7s in a 5.1 rig for a couple of years now, and while I've tested other speakers could arguably outperform them in any of several regards, I always migrate back to the Pensils for their excellent sound, and form factor . I guess 40yrs with a neat freak has rubbed off a bit - I feel uncomfortable when the visiting test gear is left out for more than a couple of days.
Short answer - as much as I love what the FH3 or FHXL can do, my vote would be for the Pensil for applications such as this.
The Pensil MLTL design architecture can easily be adopted with a wide range of driver makes and models - I've built or heard them with several models of Fostex and Mark Audio. The enclosures for smaller drivers such as Alpair7.3 or Fostex FF125WK have the great advantage of very small footprint, which can aid in placement in smaller / cramped spaces.
As Dave notes, in HT rig, the lowest octaves will certainly be handled by separately powered woofers, with the mains / centers high-passed at frequencies optionally as high as 120-150. I've been living with a pair of Pensil7s in a 5.1 rig for a couple of years now, and while I've tested other speakers could arguably outperform them in any of several regards, I always migrate back to the Pensils for their excellent sound, and form factor . I guess 40yrs with a neat freak has rubbed off a bit - I feel uncomfortable when the visiting test gear is left out for more than a couple of days.
Short answer - as much as I love what the FH3 or FHXL can do, my vote would be for the Pensil for applications such as this.
Thanks for the input, Chris. I should have been clearer. The speakers will be shared by the HT system, which has a separate 5.1 receiver; I just swap out the wires to go from 2.0 to 5.1. But to make sure I am hearing you correctly: the Pensils should still be fine for 2.0 music listening, that is, I won't need the sub for this application, since bass should be deep, just not HT deep? Mario's comments seem to imply this.
After hearing the 7.3s in a full zoot 5.1 system (ie. with calibrated and EQ'd LFE channel) in the same room, I'd be inclined to suggest that you find something missing without sub(s)in the music only system.
If there's an easy way to implement it, I'd recommend using the woofer(s) in both modes, and inserting a simple PLLXO high pass filter on the tube amp driving the 7.3s. The midrange clarity, dynamic range and attainable SPLs with less distortion can improve substantially.
If there's an easy way to implement it, I'd recommend using the woofer(s) in both modes, and inserting a simple PLLXO high pass filter on the tube amp driving the 7.3s. The midrange clarity, dynamic range and attainable SPLs with less distortion can improve substantially.
I'm in Memphis, TN. In regard to "something missing" on the low end without a sub in 2.0 mode, am I not missing much more with the Advents? My hope was that either the FHs or Pensils would give me openness, clarity, etc. without sacrificing too much of the low end. Most designs I have looked at have bass in the mid to upper 50hz, not the 40hz range. Am I wrong to think the F3 of the Pensil with Alpair 7.3 goes down around 45hz?
Hi,
As I have already mentioned several times, one of the ways to get the best of both worlds would be to go F.A.S.T. route. You can have your favorite fullrange driver on top and a suitable woofer would do the bass duty. There are plenty of examples on this forum. However, that option might be stretching your budget. Alternatively, you may build the Pencils now, and add a pair of suitable woofers later when finances permit, so you could have both options: using Alpairs as standalone units, or in FAST configuration with added woofers and simple switcheable 1st order crossovers.
As I have already mentioned several times, one of the ways to get the best of both worlds would be to go F.A.S.T. route
. You can have your favorite fullrange driver on top and a suitable woofer would do the bass duty. There are plenty of examples on this forum. However, that option might be stretching your budget. Alternatively, you may build the Pencils now, and add a pair of suitable woofers later when finances permit, so you could have both options: using Alpairs as standalone units, or in FAST configuration with added woofers and simple switcheable 1st order crossovers. Okay, to play devil's advocate: if one goes the F.A.S.T. route, if you were someone like me, why not just put a MA or Fostex driver in an appropriate bass reflex cabinet of small, bookshelf size? Why build a floorstander like a Pensil or FH, if you don't need the extra bass extension these enclosures give you and use them just for mid and high frequencies? Again, I am a newbie trying to figure this all out. I don't actually care about the HT, really. It's so rare I watch movies in 5.1 where earth shattering sound is needed. For some reason I thought the Pensils or FH produced decent bass, not hitting the lowest octaves for classical and rock music, yes, but still worth the tradeoff to get transparency, soundstage, and air? If the music is anemic, then I may have to rethink things b/c I will never spend $500+ on a subwoofer.
That's valid. Do you still have the Advents? Their tight, deep bass is tough to beat (in any similar-sized enclosure). One thing to try is (a) build that simple MA or Fostex BR, then (b) cross low-ish to the Advent woofer (tweeter disconnected).
That has the potential to be a very high-performing system. If I find the time, I will do that with bipole Fostex FE103En's.
Now that sounds interesting: never thought of that. Thanks for the tip! Could I just place the full-range speaker cabinet on top of the Advents? Do I just bypass the Advents' cross over completely? I guess the real question would be: what driver do I go with to match the Advent woofers? Shouldn't I get something with the same SPL? I think the Advents are 88-89db. So should I look at the Fostex FF85, 105, 125wk. I am inclined to keep it simple and small; maybe the FF85wk would be the best and make a low pass filter at 125-150hz?
Yes and yes. Randomly, you can also try putting the widebander on OB atop (or whatever) the Advents (but you will need wings but they potentially get substantial the lower you want to cross).
Any of those drivers is reasonable (you can pad down woofer or widebander to get a balanced match, but after accounting for the total resistance, you might get lucky and not need to.) I have used dozens but ended up liking the FE103En's (because they have the most uncanny nuetral sound, but most people prefer something "exciting" or "robust" rather than tonally neutral, including me at times.)
If you are keeping the speakers near walls / corners, baffle step may be a non-issue (for me, though, I like to do bipole or a .5 driver if the speakers aren't sitting on a shelf). Bipole just adds another driver but either halves or doubles impedance (and can complicate positioning), and the .5 adds one part (either a cap or coil depending on how you like to wire it, and simplifies positioning).
Since you like simple, you might at least consider the simplicity of a first-order series crossover which I find to be (fortunately for me) a bit idiot-proof
WAF is a factor so I don't see an OB happening. If I can have two small speakers out of the way and just put them atop the Advents when listening to music, then it will be much safer for the marriage.
There is a local speaker maker who said he can help me with a design if need be. I don't think I could design the crossover all on my own at this point: do people just make a separate box for the crossover in FAST designs like this, to keep things tidy? I am still trying to wrap my head around the wiring layout. Just out of curiosity: what would happen if I hooked up the Fostex speakers to the A terminals and the Advents to the B terminals on the back of the Marantz and have the low pass filter inside the Advent enclosures with the tweeters disconnected? Would that work?
There is a local speaker maker who said he can help me with a design if need be. I don't think I could design the crossover all on my own at this point: do people just make a separate box for the crossover in FAST designs like this, to keep things tidy? I am still trying to wrap my head around the wiring layout. Just out of curiosity: what would happen if I hooked up the Fostex speakers to the A terminals and the Advents to the B terminals on the back of the Marantz and have the low pass filter inside the Advent enclosures with the tweeters disconnected? Would that work?
That's the beauty of a first-order series -- the low-pass and high-pass slopes are simplistically complementary and it tends to "work out" very often (i.e., good enough especially crossed below the midrange where the room has already ruined the idea of a flat response.) If a first-order series doesn't work, I tend to give up or go active because I'm not knowledgeable.
I'd just either stuff it into either enclosure, unless you're feeling like experimenting (mine are often laying around in plain sight for easy fiddling which is both good and bad.)
I'm not sure what's best for your situation, but what I do is pretty dumb and it works well enough for me. I have a Bottlehead SET with a single set of terminals, and out from there, I have two sets of wires: one goes to the Fostex, the other to the sub.
The downside of not high-passing (aside from Dopper, other distortion, lower max SPL etc.) is that the cones are not protected from over-excursion below the box's tuning (in my case, 80Hz) so you have to be careful how far you push it, especially with bassy / thumpy music. When I crank them, I can see the Fostex traveling beyond the "sensible range" on kick drum beats but it still sounds great (I don't listen to very demanding music). Although I've never blown Fostex, obviously there is some signal which will cause mechanical and/or thermal failure, and that threshold is of course lower when they aren't high passed.
If there's a spare amp around, a far more flexible and likely much less cheaper route would be to totally bypass the Advent's XO (which IIRC used "cost effective" quality parts) and go passive line level. The little hobby box, RCA connectors and extra patch cords will likely cost more than all but the most boutique small value caps and resistors required, and almost certainly less than the components required to achieve that low an XO frequency at speaker level.
Thanks for all the responses. This is all a bit overwhelming, as I am trying to sort out all these options. I spoke to my local speaker maker and he thought the Advents as subs idea was doable but he didn't think they would keep up well with the Fostex drivers, since there would be about a 3db sound difference. If the Marantz had a preamp out (which it doesn't), I could explore Chris' idea (if I am understanding him correctly) and use a separate amp/receiver to power the Advents, which then would have its own volume control to compensate for this 3db difference.
But at this point, maybe the easiest thing to do is to build a Pensil or something similar and just use my Polk PSW111 sub until I can afford or build something better. The Polk may be just as fast or even faster than the Advents. Who knows. It seems people like these full range speakers a lot, even without subs, so if I am just using the Polk sub for movies and the occasional light rock album, perhaps I can learn to listen for other aspects of music other than low end. I mean, isn't this why I started this thread? To experience something different from what I am getting with the Advents? But I'll keep exploring all these options.
But at this point, maybe the easiest thing to do is to build a Pensil or something similar and just use my Polk PSW111 sub until I can afford or build something better. The Polk may be just as fast or even faster than the Advents. Who knows. It seems people like these full range speakers a lot, even without subs, so if I am just using the Polk sub for movies and the occasional light rock album, perhaps I can learn to listen for other aspects of music other than low end. I mean, isn't this why I started this thread? To experience something different from what I am getting with the Advents? But I'll keep exploring all these options.
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