Ok, first off I'm a drummer. I have a basic understanding of live sound so far.. but I recently bought a PA system to help my band do live shows at bars without their own PA system..so I'm basically learning as I go.
Simply put, I want more low end in my rig and I want to do some upgrading. Whether it means a new amp, or sub speakers, that's what I need help figuring out!
I have 2 18" 8ohm peavey black widows, rated at 700w program and a behringer nu3000 amp powering them in bridged mono. The 2 subs are daisy chained, so if I understand correctly, they're now sitting at 4ohms. The honest output of the nu3000, read from another thread on this forum, is about 2000w in bridged mono for 4ohms. So each sub should be getting 1000w RMS each, right? Well I've got peavey 215s as tops (with a separate nu3000 piwering those) and the subs really don't keep up. Even when I'm cranking the amp for my subs they really aren't as powerful as I want. But since I assume I'm way over RMS on my black widows, I feel like I'll be blowing them and the speakers simply aren't powerful enough for my liking.
So I've been debating..should I go with some eminence kilomax pro 18" speakers to replace the black widows? They have a power rating of 1250w, or 2500 programmed at 8ohms. Sticking with the nu3000 amp, do you think that would give me the extra oompf I'm looking for in my low end, even though I may actually be under-powering it with my nu3000 amp? Or would I need a stronger anp to go with those as well?
Before anyone hates me for liking behringer, like I said I am a newb with live sound and I've always had success with behringer products thus far.
Any input would be truly appreciated. Thank you!
Simply put, I want more low end in my rig and I want to do some upgrading. Whether it means a new amp, or sub speakers, that's what I need help figuring out!
I have 2 18" 8ohm peavey black widows, rated at 700w program and a behringer nu3000 amp powering them in bridged mono. The 2 subs are daisy chained, so if I understand correctly, they're now sitting at 4ohms. The honest output of the nu3000, read from another thread on this forum, is about 2000w in bridged mono for 4ohms. So each sub should be getting 1000w RMS each, right? Well I've got peavey 215s as tops (with a separate nu3000 piwering those) and the subs really don't keep up. Even when I'm cranking the amp for my subs they really aren't as powerful as I want. But since I assume I'm way over RMS on my black widows, I feel like I'll be blowing them and the speakers simply aren't powerful enough for my liking.
So I've been debating..should I go with some eminence kilomax pro 18" speakers to replace the black widows? They have a power rating of 1250w, or 2500 programmed at 8ohms. Sticking with the nu3000 amp, do you think that would give me the extra oompf I'm looking for in my low end, even though I may actually be under-powering it with my nu3000 amp? Or would I need a stronger anp to go with those as well?
Before anyone hates me for liking behringer, like I said I am a newb with live sound and I've always had success with behringer products thus far.
Any input would be truly appreciated. Thank you!
When you say daisy chained, that to me implies wired in series. If that is the case then the drivers would be doubling in impedance to 16 ohms.
For 4 ohms, you need to wire the drivers in parallel. ie wires running direct from the amp to the each of the drivers individually (assuming they are in separate cabs).
I guess there is a third scenario where you have the wires from the amp going to the first speaker and then wires from that going to the second. That's probably not ideal but should be 4 ohms.
The other thing to check is that the drivers are in phase. If one is reversed then you will get cancellation.
edit: moved from dup thread.
Tony.
For 4 ohms, you need to wire the drivers in parallel. ie wires running direct from the amp to the each of the drivers individually (assuming they are in separate cabs).
I guess there is a third scenario where you have the wires from the amp going to the first speaker and then wires from that going to the second. That's probably not ideal but should be 4 ohms.
The other thing to check is that the drivers are in phase. If one is reversed then you will get cancellation.
edit: moved from dup thread.
Tony.
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I have one cable running from the amp to one sub enclosure, and a cable from one sub to the next. I have an active crossover to send ~100hz and below to the subs. Enclosures are the basic ones that a peavey 118 comes in, ported on the bottom right corner in the front. I suppose the 100hz and below is just weak. I want more presence of my subs when I have to turn my tops up. I don't have any other filters on my mixer or anything before the amp on my subs.
I know this isn't really important at all, but to me anything daisy-chained somewhat implies that new units can be added without disturbing existing units. Parallel wiring has this property, but not series wiring.
First off, I would open up the boxes and double check that the polarity is the same for both subwoofer boxes. They are probably okay, but if they are reversed for some reason that will suck out the low bass pretty seriously.
Second, you're probably right that a single 18" sub can't keep up with a double 15 top. Bass takes a lot of power to do with authority, so an upgrade is probably a reasonable path.
Replacing the Black Widow woofers with an upgraded woofer is simply not cost effective. A more expensive woofer will not make a significant difference at all. I think the best option with what you have would be to buy two more identical black widow drivers and build identical cabinets for them. Mixing and matching subwoofers is a bad recipe. You'll want to go with more of the same.
I'd also say that one bridged NU3000 for two black widow drivers in parallel is a good match. More than enough power to cook them if you're being too agressive, but probably reasonably safe. Not underpowered at all.
The big question is how much upgrading do you want to do? As I said, with subwoofers you want to have all your cabinets be the same. The thing is, I don't think the Black Widow 18s are a good value in general for subwoofer duty. So if you think you may want to expand your inventory up to 6 or 8 cabinets in the future for whatever reason, it might be a good plan to sell your subwoofers and start over with a better-performing better-value driver and cabinet.
BUT, if you just want to do an incremental upgrade and just get a bit more, the most cost effective route is to stay the course as I mentioned and build 2 more identical cabinets. Even if the BW woofers aren't a particularly great deal, building on what you have is much more cost effective than scrapping them and starting over. Powering all 4 off one inuke will still be an upgrade, but for full utilization you may want to get a second NU3000.
Hopefully that conveyed my point. I'm a bit tired and having trouble getting my ideas into words.
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i got your point! I was able to work a craigslist deal where I got these black widows to upgrade my old sub speakers and walk away with an extra $100 in profit. Not bad!
Here's the dilemma: when transporting all my gear, I literally have no extra room for any more enclosures. I can fit my rack, cooler of cables, 2 pv215s and the 2 18" enclosures in my SUV and that's all. Until I get more serious with the band or even as a "dj", I have to maximize what I do have in my enclosures. So that's why my first idea is to get a better quality speaker. Would a new enclosure also make a huge difference?
And by checking the polarity inside the subs, are you talking about the +/- wires connected from the unit to the speaker?
I don't think I'll ever have my speakers turned up to even 75% of their max capacity, so I was just hoping if I had an awesome 18" speaker in my enclosures that it would get me by until the next level of investing is required.
Here's the dilemma: when transporting all my gear, I literally have no extra room for any more enclosures. I can fit my rack, cooler of cables, 2 pv215s and the 2 18" enclosures in my SUV and that's all. Until I get more serious with the band or even as a "dj", I have to maximize what I do have in my enclosures. So that's why my first idea is to get a better quality speaker. Would a new enclosure also make a huge difference?
And by checking the polarity inside the subs, are you talking about the +/- wires connected from the unit to the speaker?
I don't think I'll ever have my speakers turned up to even 75% of their max capacity, so I was just hoping if I had an awesome 18" speaker in my enclosures that it would get me by until the next level of investing is required.
Are the cones visible (or can be). If so. Simply connect a 1.5v battery and check that both cones either go out or in. If one goes out and one goes in then reverse the wires on the daisy chained one. (Yes I was thinking of something else with the series comment 
)
I have seen drivers with incorrect polarity marked. The above will tell you without a doubt
Tony.
)I have seen drivers with incorrect polarity marked. The above will tell you without a doubt
Tony.
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Hmmm...
If it was mine, I'd upgrade to some nice 4ohm B&C woofers in good ported boxes, and power one per side off an NU6000. Modern woofers often have twice the displacement ability of older models, so you'll gain +6dB there, without adding any extra boxes. If you ask me, that's non-trivial. Modern woofers aren't cheap, but a good, modern 18" driver will cheerfully annihilate old school 2x18" cabs at the bottom end.
I'd also ditch the 2x15"s. 2x15"+horn cabs are brilliant when you just want to make a lot of noise with a very simple setup. One amplifier and you're done. They cover a reasonable amount of bass, though the midrange often leaves something to be desired. Since you've got bass covered by the subs, I'd swap out for some nice 1x12+horn cabinets, and use the extra pack space for additional subs if you want them. A good 1x12" will do quite well on top of a pair of 18" subs. I know that's quite a way away, but its probably where I'd aim to be.
Chris
If it was mine, I'd upgrade to some nice 4ohm B&C woofers in good ported boxes, and power one per side off an NU6000. Modern woofers often have twice the displacement ability of older models, so you'll gain +6dB there, without adding any extra boxes. If you ask me, that's non-trivial. Modern woofers aren't cheap, but a good, modern 18" driver will cheerfully annihilate old school 2x18" cabs at the bottom end.
I'd also ditch the 2x15"s. 2x15"+horn cabs are brilliant when you just want to make a lot of noise with a very simple setup. One amplifier and you're done. They cover a reasonable amount of bass, though the midrange often leaves something to be desired. Since you've got bass covered by the subs, I'd swap out for some nice 1x12+horn cabinets, and use the extra pack space for additional subs if you want them. A good 1x12" will do quite well on top of a pair of 18" subs. I know that's quite a way away, but its probably where I'd aim to be.
Chris
Xalanx309,
1) Welcome to the forum, we generally accept anyone that is polite, regardless of their chosen profession ;^).
2) You are 99% likely to be correct that "daisy chained" cabinets will be in parallel, but assuming the subs "should be getting 1000w RMS each" is just an assumption. "RMS" means root mean square, the speakers would only get 1000 watts "RMS" with a sine wave. Typical live music, unless heavily compressed, will have less than 1/10th the average of the peaks- when your amp hits 1000 watts on the kick drum, the speaker sees an average of 100 watts.
3) Again, you are assuming an unverified premise. The subs may not be getting anything near the full output of the amp, you need to check out the meter lights, full output is the red "clip/limit" light, the one below is -10 dB, 1/10th the power, and less than half as loud to your (deaf drummer) ear ;^).
4) The Eminence Kilomax 18" are less sensitive than the Peavey Black Widow speakers, so unless they were in larger cabinets, will not be as loud as your present speakers.
5) See #3, report back what the meter lights are doing when the subs are used at the level you have had them set at.
6) The Kilomax can easily survive peaks of 2000 watts, but as mentioned in #4, require more power to get louder than the Black Widow speakers.
7) Me too, except when they fail, which has happened no more often then other gear costing several times the cost of Behringer products. I just purchased my fifth NU4-6000, which will be driving four Keystone Subs.
Putting your speakers in the Keystone design would make them about 4 dB louder, a bigger increase than going to an amp of double the power. Unfortunately, the Keystone is likely larger than your present cabinet(s).
Good luck,
Have Fun!
Art
Some good ideas thus far. A pair of Keystones under 1X12s would be a pretty nice rig, might even fit in SUV. That said, I have friends that are fond of 2X15 cabs and as a drummer myself I find strong low mids to be the secret sauce for killer drum sound so I get that. PITA to move though... I would look at the SS15 if you have some spare inches of space. SS15s under 2X15 would be a nice slamming rock rig. It would help if you tell us more about your music genre etc in addition to the make model of XO/processor and types of gigs (outdoor?). All this being said, the thought of making concert thunder from the pack space of an SUV is very unlikely and I will say as a former gigging pro, it might be best to hire sound. Honestly, as a drummer you have it the hardest: most gear/longest setup too.
Actually after typing this... You actually can get your drums AND a PA with subs to fit in an SUV?!
Actually after typing this... You actually can get your drums AND a PA with subs to fit in an SUV?!
So for less-sensitive, higher wattage-handling speakers, I'd basically need a more powerful amp to push it to get it to it's full potential? And to those curious, my subs are in phase!
The indicator in the sub amp usually hit's the dot right below the clip, -10db. While the speakers mayyybe hit the 2nd to bottom light, -30db?
The indicator in the sub amp usually hit's the dot right below the clip, -10db. While the speakers mayyybe hit the 2nd to bottom light, -30db?
It's country/classic rock/maybe a little pop. Drums ride seperate. Lol. I never thought I'd be the one doing sound and "dj'ing" but the right opportunities came across for the right price so I hopped on it and now here I am, out of money and out of my mind. Opened up a can of worms with this live sound stuff. Outdoor gigs, small-to-medium-sized indoor spaces. I'll get back to you on my crossover. All I know is it's dbx.
I have no way to accurately measure peak power, but the NU4-6000 NU4-6000 performed as well on low frequencies as on mid/high frequencies, and is capable of near full power sine wave output with all four channels driven to rated output at two ohms, or two bridged mono pairs driving four ohm loads each. The $350 NU4-6000 appears to be within 3 dB of the $5500 Powersoft K10 published rating on sustained (more than 1 second) output.
The NU4-6000 with two bridged mono pairs each driving four ohm loads just below the illumination of the clip/limit light each put out 85.5 volts at 60 Hz (1828 watts), 84.6 volts at 30 Hz (1789 watts), dropping the mains voltage on a 100' 10AWG 120V line from 118.1 volts down to 107.2 volts, drawing 31 amperes.
Using just one bridged mono pair, the amp ran for 40+ seconds before I terminated the test, as the amp was drawing 19.8 amperes, and the "tired" 20 amp mains breaker had popped several times in various tests already. The amp would have put out more power given a full 120 volts, but the test represents "real world" situation, we don't generally plug our amplifiers in to an outlet two feet from the mains transformer.
I also tested my old "heavy iron" bass favorite, a Crest CA9, bridged into a 4 ohm load it dropped the mains to 99.6 volts, drew 37.8 amps but only put out 80 volts (1600 watts). The NU4-6000 put out more power, and drew only 50% of the power from the mains compared to the CA9, and weighs a small fraction of the "heavy iron".
I likes my new amps Berry Berry much
.Art
Xalanx,
1)Correct.
2) You perhaps tested polarity, but you did not check phase. Your subs probably do not match the phase of your ported (phase inversion) top cabinets in the crossover region, which makes for a lack of "punch".
3) When the -10 light on your amp illuminates, it is only putting out 100 (peak) watts. You bought a 1000 watt amp, and are using 1/10th it's potential.
Kind of like buying a Ferrari and never taking it out of first gear
.Art
Hi Xalanx309,
Just some thoughts:
Just looking @ the spec sheets for the PV215 and the PV118 you would need two PV118 per PV215, but even then the PV118 does not seem to offer a lot of low frequency extension over the PV215 (Peavey recommends an: "...infrasonic filter...40Hz...minimum of 18dB...rool-off." for the PV118). The PV118 has an internal Low Pass Filter, I wonder what it is; have you tried bypassing that, and then setting HP(infrasonic?)/LP filters @ your amplifier?
Are your amplifiers the iNuke NU3000DSP? Those would give you better response tailoring capability then the standard NU3000.
Art's (weltersys) Keystone cabinets w/ a better 18" driver would give you a lot better low end. Another cabinet that comes to mind is djk's PPSL, if you don't have sufficient room to transport two Keystones maybe two Dual 15" PPSL would fit ( http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...nterested-ppsl-enclosures-12.html#post2646446 ).
I would not spend too much time trying to modify Peavey's boxes, better just to sell/replace.
Regards,
Just some thoughts:
Just looking @ the spec sheets for the PV215 and the PV118 you would need two PV118 per PV215, but even then the PV118 does not seem to offer a lot of low frequency extension over the PV215 (Peavey recommends an: "...infrasonic filter...40Hz...minimum of 18dB...rool-off." for the PV118). The PV118 has an internal Low Pass Filter, I wonder what it is; have you tried bypassing that, and then setting HP(infrasonic?)/LP filters @ your amplifier?
Are your amplifiers the iNuke NU3000DSP? Those would give you better response tailoring capability then the standard NU3000.
Art's (weltersys) Keystone cabinets w/ a better 18" driver would give you a lot better low end. Another cabinet that comes to mind is djk's PPSL, if you don't have sufficient room to transport two Keystones maybe two Dual 15" PPSL would fit ( http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subw...nterested-ppsl-enclosures-12.html#post2646446 ).
I would not spend too much time trying to modify Peavey's boxes, better just to sell/replace.
Regards,
Okay, if you are limited by pack space that does change things quite a bit. Can you provide a bit more information on the enclosures you have? Specifically external dimensions and port dimensions, shape, and length. As chris661 said, putting a badass new 18 in the same box would probably work, but I think you may run into issues with the port size and it may be better to just start over. Perhaps if you have room for slightly larger enclosures, let us know what the biggest size you can accommodate is. Simply put, bigger boxes means louder.
Here's an option I'll throw out there:
4 THAM 15 boxes with some good quality B&C 15s. I think that should be roughly comparable in total volume (pack space) to the two 118 boxes if a bit bigger, but having 4 cabinets to maneuver means you can do a more efficient packing job in your vehicle. 4 THAM15 boxes loaded with B&C 15TBX100 woofers at full power will utterly crush those Peavey boxes on output. Given the music you play, I don't think you really need a ton of sub-45hz output.
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Hi zettairyouiki,
Externals according to the Peavey spec sheets: PV118 (HxWxL) 27"x12.88"x19.63" PV215 (HxWxL) 48.25"x18.38"x14.25".
I have the -6dB point for the THAM15 using the B&C 15TBX100 @ ~40Hz, a single THAM15 like that should easily outperform a PV118, but it would only marginally extend the low end of the PV118 (downward), might sound a lot better though.
Regards,
Externals according to the Peavey spec sheets: PV118 (HxWxL) 27"x12.88"x19.63" PV215 (HxWxL) 48.25"x18.38"x14.25".
I have the -6dB point for the THAM15 using the B&C 15TBX100 @ ~40Hz, a single THAM15 like that should easily outperform a PV118, but it would only marginally extend the low end of the PV118 (downward), might sound a lot better though.
Regards,
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