My problem is that its not mentioned that what are the "stock available output voltages".
For the batteries, I don't see why is any of those batteries better then the ones from A123. They have 30 mR vs. 10 mR internal resistance from A123. The only reason I find is they are a bit cheaper. But the A123 are not that expensive either, epbuddy sells the cells for about 10 USD a piece and the finished kits are about 12 USD / cell.
Internal resistance of car batteries
I wonder what the internal resistance of my 100AH car batteries is. 1mR for the entire 6 cell battery? They sounded slightly better than the MeanWell but not enough of an improvement to bother with the extra expense and complexity of running batteries. They make an unbelievable spark when slamming down the last terminal though. Very impressive for your friends. "Have a listen to my new amp, MuahHaHa". Zap!
I wonder what the internal resistance of my 100AH car batteries is. 1mR for the entire 6 cell battery? They sounded slightly better than the MeanWell but not enough of an improvement to bother with the extra expense and complexity of running batteries. They make an unbelievable spark when slamming down the last terminal though. Very impressive for your friends. "Have a listen to my new amp, MuahHaHa". Zap!
ZAP indeed!
Pretty funny, Scott ! Except to those poor souls who have blown up their t-amps by doing precisely what you described with two (count 'em) car batteries in series...
Actually if I am remembering correctly (can't rely too much on that!), Vinnie at RedWine said the internal resistance on even the "car audio" specialized mega batteries was on the order of 2 x to 3x higher than his supplies, and that their HF performance leaves something to be desired, along with their chemical noise.
And THAT is why he has taken such great pains to design in a "soft start" circuit that really works and then gets completely out of the way on his LPF supplies, otherwise more than a few amps would go ka-poof!
Also, a huge supply current inrush can sometimes cause the logic circuitry to "latch-up" and stay that way...not always visible but it sure does get noticed when the amp don' work right no'more.
BTW not many people realize Vinnie is way more than just a very good "tweaker" who got lucky with his t-amps... I practically had to drag it out of him but it turns out he was a full-on R&D engineer at Bell Labs, among other things designing multi KW power supplies for high powered laser systems, etc.
As you can tell, I have a LOT of respect for his acumen, but that respect is surpassed by the appreciation of the SOUND we can get by using his battery supplies. It's really a BIG difference, far more than I had wanted to imagine it would be, and even more so because of the $800 expense needed to get it! But it was worth it... Simply amazing.
Pretty funny to consider a $800 supply with a $50 amp board, but if it kills most "super amps" in the $10K range and up... well, that's $9K+ that we've saved, right?
Pretty funny, Scott ! Except to those poor souls who have blown up their t-amps by doing precisely what you described with two (count 'em) car batteries in series...
Actually if I am remembering correctly (can't rely too much on that!), Vinnie at RedWine said the internal resistance on even the "car audio" specialized mega batteries was on the order of 2 x to 3x higher than his supplies, and that their HF performance leaves something to be desired, along with their chemical noise.
And THAT is why he has taken such great pains to design in a "soft start" circuit that really works and then gets completely out of the way on his LPF supplies, otherwise more than a few amps would go ka-poof!
Also, a huge supply current inrush can sometimes cause the logic circuitry to "latch-up" and stay that way...not always visible but it sure does get noticed when the amp don' work right no'more.
BTW not many people realize Vinnie is way more than just a very good "tweaker" who got lucky with his t-amps... I practically had to drag it out of him but it turns out he was a full-on R&D engineer at Bell Labs, among other things designing multi KW power supplies for high powered laser systems, etc.
As you can tell, I have a LOT of respect for his acumen, but that respect is surpassed by the appreciation of the SOUND we can get by using his battery supplies. It's really a BIG difference, far more than I had wanted to imagine it would be, and even more so because of the $800 expense needed to get it! But it was worth it... Simply amazing.
Pretty funny to consider a $800 supply with a $50 amp board, but if it kills most "super amps" in the $10K range and up... well, that's $9K+ that we've saved, right?
Chargers for 9X or 13X a123?
I would agree on this one, the A123 cells have much lower internal R, and that's probably going to make an audible difference.
But again ep buddy only sells battery/charger combos up to a 7 cell pack (23.1V) don't they?
These TK2050 boards really benefit from the extra voltage we could get with 9 elements in series... and if we're running 510A outputs then we can go up to +45V supplies, meaning 13 elements in series would get close.
So yeah, the a123 batteries would work really well. What we need now is a battery management system that can sense and charge that many LiFePo4 elements all at once, preferably without needing to disconnect from the sound system. Any ideas on this front?
And the deWalt +36V packs, despite the negative press, are also using 10 or 11 of the a123 cells, and so may be quite useful for the 510A type (the a123 cells typically get charged at 3.7V max)
I would agree on this one, the A123 cells have much lower internal R, and that's probably going to make an audible difference.
But again ep buddy only sells battery/charger combos up to a 7 cell pack (23.1V) don't they?
These TK2050 boards really benefit from the extra voltage we could get with 9 elements in series... and if we're running 510A outputs then we can go up to +45V supplies, meaning 13 elements in series would get close.
So yeah, the a123 batteries would work really well. What we need now is a battery management system that can sense and charge that many LiFePo4 elements all at once, preferably without needing to disconnect from the sound system. Any ideas on this front?
And the deWalt +36V packs, despite the negative press, are also using 10 or 11 of the a123 cells, and so may be quite useful for the 510A type (the a123 cells typically get charged at 3.7V max)
I don't see the point in the deWalt packs. If they have 11 cell then they are about 12 USD / cell. And you have to tear them apart and make a new battery pack with soldering directly on the batteries... For the same money ep_buddy can make a nice pack with proven technology used in flying models. Or you can just buy a pack from A123 Racing for the same money.
11 cells in series = a pack of 5 + a pack of 6 in series. That easy.
You can get professional chargers on the range of 100 - 150 USD. They charge the pack in under 20 minutes so I wouldn't want to listen to music while charging. I'd just do a nice 3 way switch:
BATTERY - OFF - CHARGING
Why not? DeWalt charger is $40
I'm looking at various options, some to power the TK2050 type boards between 24V to 30V, and others to power boards like hifimediy T3 which can work very well with +36V
So for the +36V systems
I'm not suggesting to tear apart the Dewalt packs, I am suggesting using them in stock form, and using the Dewalt charger.
They use the same A123 cells you're recommending, and should perform very well. And they come already pre-assembled in in a rugged and durable case. No work, no fuss, just plug n'play.
As a point of cost comparison, the biggest difference is that the Dewalt charger for these costs only $40 USD, for a total cost of $189 w. free shipping from Amazon for the Batt-Pack AND charger. And a 3 year warranty!! That's about $190
Look how that stacks up with ep Buddy: $85 for a 7 cell + $48 for a 4 cell + $100 charger + $30 est for a case + $20+ for shipping = estimated $273 for the separate cell-packs which then require assembly and fitting into a suitable box. What warranty?
So $190 for a ready-made +36V using the same top quality A123 cells vs $270+ estimated (could be more) for the same cells in a configuration that requires assembly and then two separate charging operations.
Conclusion #1:
If you're looking for +36V supply, what's not to like in the Dewalt? Especially with their 3 year warranty and 90 day full exchange policy?
Different scenario:
Now, if you're only looking for supplies for the TK2050 which does great with the 8 cells at 3.3V each = +26.4V...now you can get 2 of the 4 cell packs with epBuddy.... the costing looks like: Qty 2 of the 4 cells at $48 ea + Qty 1 of their 6 cell iChargers at $99 + a box for $30 + 20+ shipping .... so that comes in @ $245 for 8 cells and what warranty?
Hmm, let's see: a T2 is $60 including shipping, add the above for $245 and it's about $305 for a pretty darn good 100 W/ch @ 4 ohms amp INCLUDING a superior audio quality supply! Sounds good to me, he says.
But WAIT!! There's MORE!!
How about this?
1) the landed cost of a hifimediy T2 with TK2050 and EpBuddy's batt-packs comes out to be about $305 (including shipping)... requires assembly and mounting the batt-pack in a box... and no long-term warranty...about $305
2) Compare that with the T3 which has the top of the line paralleled STA517B + pre-assembled Dewalt batt-pack and charger... including shipping, requires no batt-pack assembly or box, 3 year warranty on batt-pack and charger ..about $310
Note that the T2 and T3 use the same controller, the great sounding 2000. The only differences will be in the output chip and from the discussions on this site, looks like the bigger STA chips sound better than the TK2050
Conclusion # 2:
For $5 extra, you get the top of the line output chip! And a batt-pack that is protected by a 3 year warranty! And you get about DOUBLE the power, with +36V supply you'll get close to 200W into 4 ohms!
That's a pretty compelling argument if you've got about $300USD for the whole package !!
How's that Dewalt +36V supply looking now?
Yeah...BUT...it's NOT the same amount of money! Have a look at the various scenarios presented here and tell me what you think of them.
I'm looking at various options, some to power the TK2050 type boards between 24V to 30V, and others to power boards like hifimediy T3 which can work very well with +36V
So for the +36V systems
I'm not suggesting to tear apart the Dewalt packs, I am suggesting using them in stock form, and using the Dewalt charger.
They use the same A123 cells you're recommending, and should perform very well. And they come already pre-assembled in in a rugged and durable case. No work, no fuss, just plug n'play.
As a point of cost comparison, the biggest difference is that the Dewalt charger for these costs only $40 USD, for a total cost of $189 w. free shipping from Amazon for the Batt-Pack AND charger. And a 3 year warranty!! That's about $190
Look how that stacks up with ep Buddy: $85 for a 7 cell + $48 for a 4 cell + $100 charger + $30 est for a case + $20+ for shipping = estimated $273 for the separate cell-packs which then require assembly and fitting into a suitable box. What warranty?
So $190 for a ready-made +36V using the same top quality A123 cells vs $270+ estimated (could be more) for the same cells in a configuration that requires assembly and then two separate charging operations.
Conclusion #1:
If you're looking for +36V supply, what's not to like in the Dewalt? Especially with their 3 year warranty and 90 day full exchange policy?
Different scenario:
Now, if you're only looking for supplies for the TK2050 which does great with the 8 cells at 3.3V each = +26.4V...now you can get 2 of the 4 cell packs with epBuddy.... the costing looks like: Qty 2 of the 4 cells at $48 ea + Qty 1 of their 6 cell iChargers at $99 + a box for $30 + 20+ shipping .... so that comes in @ $245 for 8 cells and what warranty?
Hmm, let's see: a T2 is $60 including shipping, add the above for $245 and it's about $305 for a pretty darn good 100 W/ch @ 4 ohms amp INCLUDING a superior audio quality supply! Sounds good to me, he says.
But WAIT!! There's MORE!!
How about this?
1) the landed cost of a hifimediy T2 with TK2050 and EpBuddy's batt-packs comes out to be about $305 (including shipping)... requires assembly and mounting the batt-pack in a box... and no long-term warranty...about $305
2) Compare that with the T3 which has the top of the line paralleled STA517B + pre-assembled Dewalt batt-pack and charger... including shipping, requires no batt-pack assembly or box, 3 year warranty on batt-pack and charger ..about $310
Note that the T2 and T3 use the same controller, the great sounding 2000. The only differences will be in the output chip and from the discussions on this site, looks like the bigger STA chips sound better than the TK2050
Conclusion # 2:
For $5 extra, you get the top of the line output chip! And a batt-pack that is protected by a 3 year warranty! And you get about DOUBLE the power, with +36V supply you'll get close to 200W into 4 ohms!
That's a pretty compelling argument if you've got about $300USD for the whole package !!
How's that Dewalt +36V supply looking now?
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I really wouldn't use the DeWalt pack.
1. It has all the electronics built into the battery module. That means charger, balancer and lot of electronics. Something I definitely don't want when I'm looking for a clean power source.
Disassembly of a DeWalt 36v Battery - RC Groups
2. It’s said the DeWalt started using lower quality LiFePo4 cells lately, after using A123 cells for years.
3. You can never diagnose individual cells from the 10 in the pack. It means what if one starts to behave weirdly it will destroy the whole pack sooner or later.
Here is what I'd do:
1. Buy 10-11 individual cells from someone who can spot weld tabs on the batteries. There are eBay sellers who do it for free. Maybe ep buddy would do that too.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-A123-system...S_Batteries&hash=item2c584a2837#ht_6000wt_906
2. Attach a wire to both solder plates for each battery. I'd end up with about 20-22 wires.
3. Make a wooden box for them. After this point, I can connect them in series if I want, or measure them individually, or charge them individually. Or replace one, which is found faulty.
4. This way I'd have a box, with all the different wires in series giving me an n * 3.3 V source. I mean this way I could use the same battery pack to give 15V to my DAC, 36V to a T1, etc.
But this is for DIY. If I would need a finished product, I'd just use the finished and supported product from RedWine Audio.
1. It has all the electronics built into the battery module. That means charger, balancer and lot of electronics. Something I definitely don't want when I'm looking for a clean power source.
Disassembly of a DeWalt 36v Battery - RC Groups
2. It’s said the DeWalt started using lower quality LiFePo4 cells lately, after using A123 cells for years.
3. You can never diagnose individual cells from the 10 in the pack. It means what if one starts to behave weirdly it will destroy the whole pack sooner or later.
Here is what I'd do:
1. Buy 10-11 individual cells from someone who can spot weld tabs on the batteries. There are eBay sellers who do it for free. Maybe ep buddy would do that too.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/4-A123-system...S_Batteries&hash=item2c584a2837#ht_6000wt_906
2. Attach a wire to both solder plates for each battery. I'd end up with about 20-22 wires.
3. Make a wooden box for them. After this point, I can connect them in series if I want, or measure them individually, or charge them individually. Or replace one, which is found faulty.
4. This way I'd have a box, with all the different wires in series giving me an n * 3.3 V source. I mean this way I could use the same battery pack to give 15V to my DAC, 36V to a T1, etc.
But this is for DIY. If I would need a finished product, I'd just use the finished and supported product from RedWine Audio.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
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Soft start
A soft start will be mandatory for any type of fast battery supply to save the power switch from an early demise.
.
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A soft start will be mandatory for any type of fast battery supply to save the power switch from an early demise.
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I second that lots of stuff not related directly to hifimediy stuffs. It sounds more like an "ad" for red wine products and the epay battery sellers.
T2 amp + preamp
Hi,
I'm planning to couple a T2 board to my exsting NAD preamp. I'm keeping the pre mostly because it's very good phono stage and the many sound reproducing machines I have.
Some pages before I've read that the Sta505 risks burning if feeded with more than 5V line input.
The pre has a max ouptu voltage of 12V @ 220 Ohms, so well above the danger zone.
Is there something I can do to avoid the risk of burning the module with a peak/pop?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Hi,
I'm planning to couple a T2 board to my exsting NAD preamp. I'm keeping the pre mostly because it's very good phono stage and the many sound reproducing machines I have.
Some pages before I've read that the Sta505 risks burning if feeded with more than 5V line input.
The pre has a max ouptu voltage of 12V @ 220 Ohms, so well above the danger zone.
Is there something I can do to avoid the risk of burning the module with a peak/pop?
Any help is greatly appreciated.
Cheers
Sorry, Batteries are NOT off topic...
Your suggestion has merit, I suspect there is much to be gained and shared by having a dedicated thread.
However it is DEFINITELY on topic with regard to the TK2050 !! Why?
Because it turns out that the power supply qualities (or limitations) seem to define so much of the actual performance of these Tripath amplifiers. In my experience, the power supply has been a far more determinant factor in the quality than the mods to the inputs, etc.
And the Tripath amps need only +V to drive them, making them ideal for battery supplies! It's a very synergistic combination. And it can go a long way toward freeing us from ground plane contamination and the AC mains line with all of its noise pollution, $1000+ power filters, $500USD power cables, etc.
If some here are very happy with smps that's great!
But that should not stop others who are also interested in battery power from participating in THIS thread, because certainly for some of us, battery power + Tripath amps has so far been the best way to get good sound, and good sound for low cost!
Alkasar, please consider this:
if there were a great smps mod, or new type or brand of smps that radically improves the sound of your amp boards, would you not want that to be discussed here? I know I would!
Listen, these discussions stimulate interest in alternatives, and since in my experience the combination of batteries with Tripath modules leads to BIG improvements over smps, please indulge us just a little bit while we explore the synergy.
Look, what we're all seeking for is the best sound we can get, right? Your contributions have definitely been valuable to me, and I'm sure to many others. I intend to try a pair of the T2 modules using the 510A precisely because of your comments.
Now let me return the favor:
If you actually tried these LiFePo4 batteries, perhaps you might find that these battery discussions actually do have merit, and actually do belong here. And you might be very surprised, as I was at first, at just how much improvement the LiFePo4 battery-pack brings to the Tripath sound.
The difference has been MUCH bigger, clearly audible to all who have compared, and better by an order of magnitude (!!) than any other mod I have tried. So I'd like to encourage others to try this and share in the enjoyment!
BTW: No, I'm not advertising, nor making any money from batteries! I got into the Tripath thing a long time ago and am very pleased to hear how good it can be!
And of course, I will continue tweaking, looking for even more of that magic !
Your suggestion has merit, I suspect there is much to be gained and shared by having a dedicated thread.
However it is DEFINITELY on topic with regard to the TK2050 !! Why?
Because it turns out that the power supply qualities (or limitations) seem to define so much of the actual performance of these Tripath amplifiers. In my experience, the power supply has been a far more determinant factor in the quality than the mods to the inputs, etc.
And the Tripath amps need only +V to drive them, making them ideal for battery supplies! It's a very synergistic combination. And it can go a long way toward freeing us from ground plane contamination and the AC mains line with all of its noise pollution, $1000+ power filters, $500USD power cables, etc.
If some here are very happy with smps that's great!
But that should not stop others who are also interested in battery power from participating in THIS thread, because certainly for some of us, battery power + Tripath amps has so far been the best way to get good sound, and good sound for low cost!
Alkasar, please consider this:
if there were a great smps mod, or new type or brand of smps that radically improves the sound of your amp boards, would you not want that to be discussed here? I know I would!
Listen, these discussions stimulate interest in alternatives, and since in my experience the combination of batteries with Tripath modules leads to BIG improvements over smps, please indulge us just a little bit while we explore the synergy.
Look, what we're all seeking for is the best sound we can get, right? Your contributions have definitely been valuable to me, and I'm sure to many others. I intend to try a pair of the T2 modules using the 510A precisely because of your comments.
Now let me return the favor:
If you actually tried these LiFePo4 batteries, perhaps you might find that these battery discussions actually do have merit, and actually do belong here. And you might be very surprised, as I was at first, at just how much improvement the LiFePo4 battery-pack brings to the Tripath sound.
The difference has been MUCH bigger, clearly audible to all who have compared, and better by an order of magnitude (!!) than any other mod I have tried. So I'd like to encourage others to try this and share in the enjoyment!
BTW: No, I'm not advertising, nor making any money from batteries! I got into the Tripath thing a long time ago and am very pleased to hear how good it can be!
And of course, I will continue tweaking, looking for even more of that magic !
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maybe you have more luck. My test was a flop. Combined a Rega Mira prestage with the sure-board. Though that the sure-board offers gain adjusment and I am sure I did adjust right - the sound overall was a bit distorted and localisation lacked. I remember that direct connection of the CD Player sounded much better.
12 V ???
I am really confuse now. Isn´t that too much for a pre out ?You can simply overview these passages. And imho, I don´t think that´s off topic. The discussers are interested in that theme regarding Hifimediy amps and not Tripaths generally ...
12V is too much for any amp! Are you sure its not a typo ?
consumer electronics standard is 2Vrms output.
220ohms output impedance is excellent.
It's about getting the best sound
Just what is your problem?
Perhaps you could tell us what we are permitted to post about. Give us your checklist: output chips? Input coupling caps? SMPS news? If you do this we promise we'll keep it to only what YOU want to read about.
Moral:
If you don't have an interest, skip over the battery parts.
BTW: The posts we have made are not just about batteries, it's about how to get the best sound, whether by battery, linear, smps or hyper-thermic plasma discharge... And I've been contributing specific information about which hifimediy boards would work specifically with +26.4V battery supplies and the +36V supplies.
I invite you to go back and re-read the end of Post #1626
kc7wdg, I'm trying to offer something here that may be of real value to many readers because it gets a REAL improvement to the sound. Not interesting to you? So sorry.
BTW What have you offered so far? I'd love to hear about your direct hands-on experience and what has worked for you.
Contribute something of value. Otherwise, please keep your peace.
Just what is your problem?
Perhaps you could tell us what we are permitted to post about. Give us your checklist: output chips? Input coupling caps? SMPS news? If you do this we promise we'll keep it to only what YOU want to read about.
Moral:
If you don't have an interest, skip over the battery parts.
BTW: The posts we have made are not just about batteries, it's about how to get the best sound, whether by battery, linear, smps or hyper-thermic plasma discharge... And I've been contributing specific information about which hifimediy boards would work specifically with +26.4V battery supplies and the +36V supplies.
I invite you to go back and re-read the end of Post #1626
kc7wdg, I'm trying to offer something here that may be of real value to many readers because it gets a REAL improvement to the sound. Not interesting to you? So sorry.
BTW What have you offered so far? I'd love to hear about your direct hands-on experience and what has worked for you.
Contribute something of value. Otherwise, please keep your peace.
I assume he's got the line-output voltage mixed up with the 12v Trigger output
12 V out on the preamp?
Is that 12V peak to peak or RMS? That's a pretty high figure if it's real. But even if it is, it is likely that you would run into massive audible clipping from the amp well before you get near that 5V figure.
With the 15V/V gain that the hifimediy has, a 2.5V input would generate a 37.5V swing... which goes way beyond the power supply's capacity when set at 30V... the result will sound horrendous as it will be in full clipping and you will probably want to turn it down.
If you put in a 5V waveform, the result will sound like a square wave and drive you screaming to "turn that damned thing down!!"
The probability of damaging your amps before you damage your hearing is not very high!
For example, the Burson Buffer AB-160 can put out over 10V, so can the DEQX and the AudioResearch and Conrad-Johnson tube pre-amps, among others... but almost no one uses them at that level.... and to date there have not been any reports of people burning out the inputs on their amps or pre-amps, Tripath or otherwise.
The industry standard of 2V out is there to show what a line-stage or pre-amp will need to put out as a MINIMUM in order to drive the amp to full output.
A 5V maximum on the hifimediy is a fairly decent safety margin.
So don't worry about it. The amp will exhibit audible clipping at any levels exceeding about 2V. You'll hear that as clearly audible distortion.
Is that 12V peak to peak or RMS? That's a pretty high figure if it's real. But even if it is, it is likely that you would run into massive audible clipping from the amp well before you get near that 5V figure.
With the 15V/V gain that the hifimediy has, a 2.5V input would generate a 37.5V swing... which goes way beyond the power supply's capacity when set at 30V... the result will sound horrendous as it will be in full clipping and you will probably want to turn it down.
If you put in a 5V waveform, the result will sound like a square wave and drive you screaming to "turn that damned thing down!!"
The probability of damaging your amps before you damage your hearing is not very high!
For example, the Burson Buffer AB-160 can put out over 10V, so can the DEQX and the AudioResearch and Conrad-Johnson tube pre-amps, among others... but almost no one uses them at that level.... and to date there have not been any reports of people burning out the inputs on their amps or pre-amps, Tripath or otherwise.
The industry standard of 2V out is there to show what a line-stage or pre-amp will need to put out as a MINIMUM in order to drive the amp to full output.
A 5V maximum on the hifimediy is a fairly decent safety margin.
So don't worry about it. The amp will exhibit audible clipping at any levels exceeding about 2V. You'll hear that as clearly audible distortion.
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