The changes you propose are too open ended and unlikely to sound as good as the original without some design skills you appear to lack. Sounds harsh I know, but while not rocket surgery speaker design does require some study.
Having said that if you want to proceed, go for it! If you cross between the mids and woofers with dsp you can eq and boost the sealed subs however you like. I would really encourage you to atleast buy a usb measurement mic and learn to use one of the many free measurement softwares.
Can't really go wrong with the Satori drivers, I've liked everyone I've tried. The tw29 is one of my favorite tweeters ever!
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Not harsh at all, mordikai.
I have some experiance with active x-overs and DSP.
Currently running my B&W805N active with MiniDSP DDRC-24 and 4xUCD400HG.
Measured the passive speaker with REW and UMIK-1 and replicated (as close as i could) the frequency response.
Added DIRAC room treatment when happy with the sound, amazing improvement from the passive set up!
But my loudspeaker design knowledge are somewhat lacking, you are right about that.
That`s why I found a visually pleasing design from what seems to be a sensible loudspeaker designer. But I think going closed box is easier to integrate into my living room and also going with double woofers will allow for more dynamic headroom (am I right?). Further down the line, going full active is the target. But i need more amps and more DSP channels (Hypex DLCP or similar)
So please, any input on my thoughts are much appreciated.
I have some experiance with active x-overs and DSP.
Currently running my B&W805N active with MiniDSP DDRC-24 and 4xUCD400HG.
Measured the passive speaker with REW and UMIK-1 and replicated (as close as i could) the frequency response.
Added DIRAC room treatment when happy with the sound, amazing improvement from the passive set up!
But my loudspeaker design knowledge are somewhat lacking, you are right about that.
That`s why I found a visually pleasing design from what seems to be a sensible loudspeaker designer. But I think going closed box is easier to integrate into my living room and also going with double woofers will allow for more dynamic headroom (am I right?). Further down the line, going full active is the target. But i need more amps and more DSP channels (Hypex DLCP or similar)
So please, any input on my thoughts are much appreciated.
1) Is there a well-reviewed production speaker you want to mimic?
2) Do you favor a single floor-standing box, or 2-piece TM + Woofers?
3) COST:
a) best Satori drivers (MP19P, TW29RN, SB34NRXL75)
b) value mix (Satori MP19P, SB29RDC; 12" Dayton DS315)
--GIVEN bi-amping: passive Xover sealed unequalized midrange + tweet, and bi-amped sealed equalized woofers. A passive LR4/LR4 crossover for the TM is not very complicated.
Look over Troels Illuminator Monitor construction as a beveled-top TM cabinet for the Satori MW19P-4 midbass and SB29RDC-04 tweeter. You have a few bottom woofer cabinet options.
For a single cabinet, bottom side-side counter-force woofers are popular for vibration control. There will be no mid-woofer spacing issues when you bi-amp with a woofer crossover around 130Hz.
You could use $120 Parts Express 0.75cuft cabinets if you just want to experiment with a TM build(sealed or ported).
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Speaker Cabinets Affect Sound. As early as 1950 Dr. Harry Olson started using the term "sonic signature" for different audio equipment... ribbon mic, tube amp, horn, speakers.... A simple baffle diffraction simulation illustrates variations in cabinet sonic signatures. Your B&W 805's are cleverly designed for modest diffraction and low vibration.
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The $190 Satori 6.5" MW16P-4 has an efficiency of 91.5db @2.83V, and a 4-ohm speaker is an easy load for your amps.
The $140 Satori TW29RN tweeter has an efficiency of 96db @2.83V with very extended high frequency. The $52 SB29RDC-04 is an excellent alternative.
The $242 12" SB34NRXL75 woofer is 91db @2.83V with extended high frequency support. The $80 Dayton DS315-8 is a well reviewed 12" alternative woofer.
The $92 8" SB23NRX45-8 woofer is 88.5db @2.83V and outperforms many 10" woofs. Ideal choice for small 3-way, or side-side counter-force pair.
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My post is slighty out of subject but because I saw some post about what I wanna do I'll post it
I have the MW16,TW29 and I have in mind 2 or 3 setup. One of them is to mix that bookshelf with a 15 or a 18 in. The idea is to replicate a bw801d or tony gee ''Mezzo Galactica''. Does someone have driver suggestion or comments about this idea ? I have in mind the rss390hf-15 but I don't know what to think about mixing alu and paper, I never did that before. I'm active , the room 18x20x11, 95 - 100 db of expectation, close enclosure
Maybe.... Google study what woofers Kairos and Kalasan owners favor, and what woofer crossovers sound best to them. A strong aluminum cone woofer can have bass-impact advantages, but removing cone breakup often requires a 3rd or 4th order crossover --- which might put extra demands on the Satori MW16P.
Maybe.... run a baffle simulation on the best Kairos + woof recommendations, along with required crossover sims.
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B&W 801d
Baffle step challenges come to mind when you jump across two different cabinets, and also jump from a 6" midrange to a 12"-15" woofer. Comparison study of the first B&W 800 which had a simple "TM speaker stack" put on top of the 15" woofer cabinet, versus the careful shape + absorption_materials used in the TM-interface to the Woofer in the B&W 801d shows that the B&W engineers made an investment to improve this interaction for a smoother SPL.
Tony Gee used an expensive trans-lam construction on the Mezzo Galactica, and a lot of sanding to create an egg shaped TM cabinet. The Mezzo Galactica measurement data around the 240Hz cabinet-cabinet crossover shows irregular SPL which must be managed. Engineering ideas from the B&W 801d (smooth interface + absorption material) might also be useful on a Mezzo Galactica. A smooth physical interface between the two TM-W boxes seems useful. Avalon has 2-box designs with smooth-continuous surfaces similar to what a 3-way Tony Gee original Glactica would look like. The well respected Kii engineers use a large radius on the front baffle, and you might be interested in expanding their ideas into a 3-way floor-stander similar to the Audio Physic Kronos.
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Beautiful images Linesource as usual. I did not speak clearly enough about the replica. What I want to do is reproduce the t-w-m concept 1-6-15. I will also add technic sb7000 to the designer list that made this concept match. My idea of baffle is this (photo). It is a 18'' in the photo. It is a work in progress. The edge will be like the avalon and as the avalon there will be two separate boxes. For me the problem in the concept of two 10 '' or 12 '' is that I've already heard a 15 '' woofer and that's what I want to explore (for now). Perhaps a subwoofer wall with cheaper sub who work very little will be better. But before going on this road, I want to explore the 1-6-15 in a floorstanding concept.
I thought about the point of xover around 150-250hz. Thus, breaking should not be a problem. But I do not know. Technic xover is 700, bw 350, tony 240, troel 200hz (with a 10 '') and 190hz for the kairos with a 10 ''
Does someone have 15' woofer to refer?
thanks!
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Madisound has these on sale. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-15-woofers/sb-acoustics-sb42fhc75-6-15-woofer/
I'm about to do something similar using these in an all passive design with the mb19's and tw29's. Looking for something with relatively high sensitivity and an easy load for my pass clone amps.
Download your BITCOIN... mordikai has found a great deal on the 15" SB_Acoustics SB42HC75-6.
The SB_Acoustics SB42HC75-6 with Fs=22.5 Qts=0.37 is optimized for a bass-reflex alignment, but also models well for a sealed woofer with volume of 119-liters(4.2cuft) for Qtc=0.71, Fb=43Hz
The SB_Acoustics SB42HCL75-6 with Fs~18.4Hz and Qts~0.31 models slightly better for sealed woofer usage....but $$$
My earlier post #65 has a passive LR4/LR4 for the MW19P-4 and SB29RDC-4 which can be changed for Satori TW29RN. LR4 = easy bi-amp.
Bevels or Rounds?
How far do you want to push the "form vs. function" design decision?
W-I-D-E Avalon ISIS style 2-box?
2-square boxes with edge bevels? Fits most living room furniture.
ROUNDs: A hand router supports a 1.5" radius quarter-round cutter.
The SB_Acoustics SB42HC75-6 with Fs=22.5 Qts=0.37 is optimized for a bass-reflex alignment, but also models well for a sealed woofer with volume of 119-liters(4.2cuft) for Qtc=0.71, Fb=43Hz
The SB_Acoustics SB42HCL75-6 with Fs~18.4Hz and Qts~0.31 models slightly better for sealed woofer usage....but $$$
My earlier post #65 has a passive LR4/LR4 for the MW19P-4 and SB29RDC-4 which can be changed for Satori TW29RN. LR4 = easy bi-amp.
Bevels or Rounds?
How far do you want to push the "form vs. function" design decision?
W-I-D-E Avalon ISIS style 2-box?
2-square boxes with edge bevels? Fits most living room furniture.
ROUNDs: A hand router supports a 1.5" radius quarter-round cutter.
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I'm thinking wide baffle as these sb 15"ers are almost 16" already. I was thinking 24-30" baffle, one box kinda like the old Boston 150/200's. Also pretty easy to build as I'm only marginal in the cabinetry department. I really like the Pass and Beyma 2 pcs speakers you show above but that may be beyond my skills.
I'm trying to get as sensitive as possible but with a pretty easy to drive impedence for my class a amps. I have the 8ohm mw19's but could try the some of the mw16's 4ohms that I have if I need the sensitivity to keep up with the 42hc's which are pretty sensitive.
Ive modeled the woofer extensively and came up with 5 cu ft as a size that would work well for both sealed and vented.
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'' Download your BITCOIN '' haha that's a good one,
Yes the madisound deal , I saw it, and I don't know what to think. I'm sure it's a good woofer , maybe better than dayton audio. Do you know someone who buy that woofer ? I didn't find a lot of review on this one.
''Bevels or Rounds?
How far do you want to push the "form vs. function" design decision?''
Your question is right and it's exactly why I didn't start my own topic. The form vs function... I want something modern as them JenzenAccu-Jara and will probably look like pass labs. It will be bevels. For the mid and the woofer it will be seal , the external view of the cabinet will be square. The inside of the cabinet will be a triangle. AudioTechnology-3WC. In this way I will be able to brace a lot and maybe put sand between the triangle and the square.
I need to do research on where is the best place to put the woofer on the baffle (height).
thanks again for your help
"Baffle Edge Diffraction Simulator By Jeff Bagby Version 1.20" combines baffle and basic floor/wall effects. For a 3-way you want to keep the mid-to-woofer C-to-C distance less than the quarter wavelength of the crossover frequency... 200Hz Xover = 17" .... and you want to keep the woofer lower than 1/4 the floor-ceiling height .... 24" for 8' ceiling to avoid resonances and floor effects in the vocal range. The simulator will allow you to tune floor and wall effects within these crude guidelines.
Now there is a idea for a nice big sealed box three way design using the SB42HCL75-6 the MW19P-4 and the Satori TW29RN tweeter
Now to model the bass enclosure
DM
This thread is quiet for a while. I can not believe that no one still has built Troels SBA10... At least I couldn't find no ones report online. I guess people find very hard building that pyramid on the slope for mid cab. I have was never really satisfied with the esthetics of Troels build so I tried to make it a bit Wilson Sophia like. Here is my latest drawing board progress.
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Troels' SBA10
Hello everyone,
Every joint at every edge of the "pyramid" is NOT a 90deg angle. Sussed it out in CAD and finally got something that looks like flesh and blood Troels design (see attachment).
The CNC mill guy did not have the neccessary skills to do 3D milling for the topside relief where the 19mm ply is cut with a slant like a bevel sloping outwards from the top edge, let alone attempt the notorious 'undercuts' where the edge slants inwards from the top edge. Both these requirements exist simultaneously on a single panel!
So the panels have been cut to the size and shape of the smallest possible bounding box (all 90deg angles) and rely on more traditional carpentry like a table saw, chisel and planer to achieve the angles and desired shape and fit.
Mind you, this is not the glue up, yet. Just put together using painter's tape to check if anything's getting in the way of anything, and the drivers fit the cutouts. The black stuff on which some panels are laid out is bitumen waterproofing which is being used for panel damping.
Have been working at this over a year with limited time and facilities but determined to see it through in the next few weeks.
Kind regards to all'
Rajeev.
Hello everyone,
Every joint at every edge of the "pyramid" is NOT a 90deg angle. Sussed it out in CAD and finally got something that looks like flesh and blood Troels design (see attachment).
The CNC mill guy did not have the neccessary skills to do 3D milling for the topside relief where the 19mm ply is cut with a slant like a bevel sloping outwards from the top edge, let alone attempt the notorious 'undercuts' where the edge slants inwards from the top edge. Both these requirements exist simultaneously on a single panel!
So the panels have been cut to the size and shape of the smallest possible bounding box (all 90deg angles) and rely on more traditional carpentry like a table saw, chisel and planer to achieve the angles and desired shape and fit.
Mind you, this is not the glue up, yet. Just put together using painter's tape to check if anything's getting in the way of anything, and the drivers fit the cutouts. The black stuff on which some panels are laid out is bitumen waterproofing which is being used for panel damping.
Have been working at this over a year with limited time and facilities but determined to see it through in the next few weeks.
Kind regards to all'
Rajeev.
