milen007 said:
53" x 10" x 12" to the nearest whole unit.
These are a paid commission. the instructions from the initial donor were that distribution of detailed plans should be by donation to the frgal-horn site. Includes all updares and the as yet unnamed but similar MBVR for the D9nf.
dave
Erwin,
Sorry for the delayed response. Hopefully you'll check back here sometime to get it.
I never built the TL speaker from Carolina Audio. I built freddy and Maiko 1. The freddie was the better sounding of the two, but as Scott has explained, the 1st Maiko was compromised design. The Freddie was pure divine inspiration. We watched Scott zip it off in an hour or two, and I had it drawn up and built within a week. People who have heard it have bought the drivers. It cost $60 of white pine and a couple days including final sanding. Super easy. But it is very low, so you may find yourself sitting on the floor for critical listening. It cannot be raised or the bass will vanish. Down to 70Hz bass is flat. In a small, well treated room it would go a little lower too. There was a slight ringing around 100Hz due to the resonance of the pine, but it was not annoying.
I'm excited to start building the Maiko 2. Thanks to Dave and Scott for the do-over. I learned enough in the first pass that I think I know how to build and make it sound pretty good.
The Maiko 1 did not sound muffled. It was colored and kinda wild child, but some aspects of the sound were truly awesome. Presence, and drums. Being made of birch, jazz drum solos sounds exactly real. I mean like REAL! And I played in jazz combos for 30 years.
Aleksander from RAAL told me that he has heard Pass F5 with D5nf and it is a great match. Another qualified audio engineer told me that full range drivers like current source amplification, which goes along with Nelson's paper on the subject, so F4 might be the better of the two. I heard Lowther with F5 last year, awesome! On my Feastrex speakers I have used Cary 50W push pull (really lousy, thin harsh) then Mac MC402, (controlled but boring as it is on any speaker) then my main amps, Manley Snapper 100W PP (divine, controlled, inspired. It has 1.5ohm outputZ for good damping.) I now have 300B, not tried it on Feastrex yet, but same low Zout.
Thanks again Dave and Scott. Time to make shopping list for Maiko2
Sorry for the delayed response. Hopefully you'll check back here sometime to get it.
I never built the TL speaker from Carolina Audio. I built freddy and Maiko 1. The freddie was the better sounding of the two, but as Scott has explained, the 1st Maiko was compromised design. The Freddie was pure divine inspiration. We watched Scott zip it off in an hour or two, and I had it drawn up and built within a week. People who have heard it have bought the drivers. It cost $60 of white pine and a couple days including final sanding. Super easy. But it is very low, so you may find yourself sitting on the floor for critical listening. It cannot be raised or the bass will vanish. Down to 70Hz bass is flat. In a small, well treated room it would go a little lower too. There was a slight ringing around 100Hz due to the resonance of the pine, but it was not annoying.
I'm excited to start building the Maiko 2. Thanks to Dave and Scott for the do-over. I learned enough in the first pass that I think I know how to build and make it sound pretty good.
The Maiko 1 did not sound muffled. It was colored and kinda wild child, but some aspects of the sound were truly awesome. Presence, and drums. Being made of birch, jazz drum solos sounds exactly real. I mean like REAL! And I played in jazz combos for 30 years.
Aleksander from RAAL told me that he has heard Pass F5 with D5nf and it is a great match. Another qualified audio engineer told me that full range drivers like current source amplification, which goes along with Nelson's paper on the subject, so F4 might be the better of the two. I heard Lowther with F5 last year, awesome! On my Feastrex speakers I have used Cary 50W push pull (really lousy, thin harsh) then Mac MC402, (controlled but boring as it is on any speaker) then my main amps, Manley Snapper 100W PP (divine, controlled, inspired. It has 1.5ohm outputZ for good damping.) I now have 300B, not tried it on Feastrex yet, but same low Zout.
Thanks again Dave and Scott. Time to make shopping list for Maiko2
Maiko 2 update. I can't remember if I have posted elsewhere that I have completed building it about 3 months ago. There are some compound angle cuts that I found highly amusing, just as you predicted thanks Scott! I've listened to it on and off, did some stuffing as Scott recommended, and it sounded good, obviously more controlled and coherent than maiko 1 but something not right. And I just figured out what it is!
I was worried that the shorter height of the speaker would bring the driver down too low. So I moved the driver up as high as i could on the baffle. I knew this was a mod, and I know that Scott thinks through every detail, so I would likely want to compare my raised driver to his centered location. By email he said yes it will make a difference, and thinking about it I can understand why. You want both vents to play in unison, and if the driver is farther distance away from vent one than the other they will peak at different times and the bass will be less precise and softer. Plus those pesky physics reasons Scott mentioned.... Anyway, so that I could later try it centered, I did not glue the front baffle to the sidewalls.
It was just wedged between the angled sidewalls, being held in by threaded rod mounting from behind, as in Maiko 1. This bent the baffle in towards the rear wall, bending the baffle a little, and impossible to keep the rod tightened. MDF really does suck for any kind of structural job.
So I kept hearing too much midbass no matter what I tried. I even stuffed all the vents SOLID with facecloths. No change! That's strange? Then I finally started feeling up the speaker while it played. Everything is dead except the front baffle, shaking like crazy.
So today I built shelfs along the inside sidewalls to support the baffle so it won't slide back into the speaker. I also cut the baffle into two parts with lengths that allow gluing the smaller part in permanently, and the other can flip to move the driver from max height back to centered. Once I decide which i like better, I will glue the top portion of the baffle down also, and butt glue it to the bottom portion, to stop the free edges from vibrating. Maybe install some angle aluminum as cross brace in there.
Been using zip cord speaker wire on my feastrex projects previous, so I'm also gonna install speaker posts and solder internal wiring to the VC leads instead of using the thumbscrew terminals on the drivers which always come loose on stranded wire. Then I can use my fancy JPS speaker cables on Maiko2.
Tomorrow I should be able to finish up and have a listen, and post some pics for you guys. I sold my big hifi speakers this week so Maiko 2 is about to take over now. I was thinking if I want lower bass, I can build a small sub which can act as a platform for the speakers to bring up the driver height.
Rich
I was worried that the shorter height of the speaker would bring the driver down too low. So I moved the driver up as high as i could on the baffle. I knew this was a mod, and I know that Scott thinks through every detail, so I would likely want to compare my raised driver to his centered location. By email he said yes it will make a difference, and thinking about it I can understand why. You want both vents to play in unison, and if the driver is farther distance away from vent one than the other they will peak at different times and the bass will be less precise and softer. Plus those pesky physics reasons Scott mentioned.... Anyway, so that I could later try it centered, I did not glue the front baffle to the sidewalls.
It was just wedged between the angled sidewalls, being held in by threaded rod mounting from behind, as in Maiko 1. This bent the baffle in towards the rear wall, bending the baffle a little, and impossible to keep the rod tightened. MDF really does suck for any kind of structural job. So I kept hearing too much midbass no matter what I tried. I even stuffed all the vents SOLID with facecloths. No change! That's strange? Then I finally started feeling up the speaker while it played. Everything is dead except the front baffle, shaking like crazy.
So today I built shelfs along the inside sidewalls to support the baffle so it won't slide back into the speaker. I also cut the baffle into two parts with lengths that allow gluing the smaller part in permanently, and the other can flip to move the driver from max height back to centered. Once I decide which i like better, I will glue the top portion of the baffle down also, and butt glue it to the bottom portion, to stop the free edges from vibrating. Maybe install some angle aluminum as cross brace in there.
Been using zip cord speaker wire on my feastrex projects previous, so I'm also gonna install speaker posts and solder internal wiring to the VC leads instead of using the thumbscrew terminals on the drivers which always come loose on stranded wire. Then I can use my fancy JPS speaker cables on Maiko2.
Tomorrow I should be able to finish up and have a listen, and post some pics for you guys. I sold my big hifi speakers this week so Maiko 2 is about to take over now. I was thinking if I want lower bass, I can build a small sub which can act as a platform for the speakers to bring up the driver height.
Rich
has anyone thought of this?
i know i may be making a dumber than dumb suggestion, but...here i go:
Has no one thought of putting a adjustable, threaded rod through laminated panels, in order to adjustably stiffen them and raise panel resonance frequency?
Think A LA GUITAR TRUSS ROD....(times about 30 rods, opposing 'balanced' bending directions..)
feedback?
i know i may be making a dumber than dumb suggestion, but...here i go:
Has no one thought of putting a adjustable, threaded rod through laminated panels, in order to adjustably stiffen them and raise panel resonance frequency?
Think A LA GUITAR TRUSS ROD....(times about 30 rods, opposing 'balanced' bending directions..)
feedback?
It has been discussed (ay least once). One has to keep the rod itself from ringing. I wouldn't use the technique on MDF, it will slowly sag and you'll have to keep tightening until it breaks.
Problems with mouth resonance in Maiko 1 was cured with braces that being a bit to long pushed out the panels to add tension.
dave
Problems with mouth resonance in Maiko 1 was cured with braces that being a bit to long pushed out the panels to add tension.
dave
ok dokey, i dont think id use it MDF for the reasons you state, although if the router groove were opposed this wouldnt happen...but solid wood maybe worth a try, if lammed like ply with perpendicular grains...i experimented with it. managed to negate the truss rod ring with green goo judiciously applied into the routed groove...really only any good for 'normal' designs, and in the end i restricted the use to just baffles
ok well i didnt think it have never been considered. nice to know i at least can keep up with you guys.
ok well i didnt think it have never been considered. nice to know i at least can keep up with you guys.
Rich,
Did you make the baffle of NOT MDF?
Keep us up on this
dave
Got it playing in the new configuration today. The bass and overall balance is better with the driver centered, as suspected. But I also switched to sexy 5gage speaker cable and upgraded internal wire which adds a lot of bass volume and control. The side rails behind the baffle allowed me to hold down the flipable top portion of the baffle pretty firmly with thread rod/driver and packing tape elsewhere. Bottom portion is glued down. But top still has some resonance not being glued down, and yes it is MDF front baffle. I still have some 18mm BB on hand from the Maiko1 project. So I could make some new solid centered front baffles this weekend.
There is still a slight hollow fuzziness overall, it is that MDF sound. But after an hour I did not notice it anymore, just enjoying music. So I might just do the whole thing again in pine or BB. But disregarding that fuzziness part we know where that comes from.... lesson learned. Everyone has to build an MDF speaker sometime in their quest.
The bass is musical and convincing. It's strong and confident and detailed down to the point where it suddenly disappears with what seems like a pretty steep rolloff. It can't make the lowest double bass fundamentals at 39Hz, it is MIA unless their nothing else playing, but a little up from there at 45-50 it kicks in and solidifies quickly. From there up, it is very dense, solid, rich tone, yet clear and detailed. EQ sounds linear and realistic from where the bass turns on up to where wizzer starts to wiz. Listening to jazz all night, I only rarely hear a bassline disappear for a second. But the overall gestalt of the music is so strong and alive through Maiko 2 it is hardly missed.
What a relief to be rid of the passive crossover. Single driver is where it's at. Now I'm excited to get rid of the MDF muck.
I don't find the driver center to be too low with the driver centered as designed. The horns deliver some mid info, so the image height is helped by the upper horn's height. I was surprised how much less mid and treble came out of the top port after the driver is moved down to center on the baffle from being up high near the top port. And I had even less internal stuffing now too. I have none on the back wall now, so maybe less mid will come out when I try some FG in the middle of the back wall but away from ports, as Scottmoose suggested.
I'm listening to Ray Brown Trio right now, maybe the PRATiest music on the face of the Earth. This speaker gets PRAT, man! It sounds real and alive, and really locks in a groove. It has a strong voice in the bass. Hard to believe it's Sd so small.
Imaging wise, all the Chang series speakers are awesome. They totally disappear and the musician is standing in front of you. My wife's sitting on the floor working with her head between speakers only a foot in front of the baffle plane, and she feels like the musicians are playing right behind her on the front wall. This is great stereo imaging, behind only Maiko 1 which made of BB was less smeared, so even more concise. Freddie is great imaging too, but too low to pull of the illusion as good as the taller maiko. Depth is fantastic. But height is a little weird with bass notes above the midrange notes due to the top horn. But it's a smooth transition, only noticed when you go lookin for it, then you deserve what you get for ignoring the music.
I'm using 24W pp 300Bs, more than enough juice. I have a 60W SS integrated I will try on it tomorrow after I glue down the baffle and maybe glue a BB brace behind it too.
I still have not installed the pyramid on the rear wall. What function does that serve? I just have 2" loose pink FG on one side wall and top of the chamber.
Thanks Dave.
Rich
Rich, your Maiko 2 sounds incredible. I wish I could listen to it! (Do you have any plans to vacation in Colorado in the near future with your system? ;-)
Incidentally, I was surprised to hear you say that you might rebuild it in BB . . . ? I thought you swore off BB forever in favor of white pine. I'm still using the Freddies you built with pine and they sound great.
I'm thinking that I'll probably build a pair of Maiko 2 speakers (for my D5nf drivers) after I build my experimental 2-way OB (for my NF5ex field coil drivers), but that would probably be months and months from now. Right now I'm still trying to figure out what to do for the crossover. (You don't have to worry about that any more, it sounds like!)
Mike
Incidentally, I was surprised to hear you say that you might rebuild it in BB . . . ? I thought you swore off BB forever in favor of white pine. I'm still using the Freddies you built with pine and they sound great.
I'm thinking that I'll probably build a pair of Maiko 2 speakers (for my D5nf drivers) after I build my experimental 2-way OB (for my NF5ex field coil drivers), but that would probably be months and months from now. Right now I'm still trying to figure out what to do for the crossover. (You don't have to worry about that any more, it sounds like!)
Mike
Hi Mike,
The NF5Ex is a very stunning driver.. Please do try it in the Makio or the BR cabinets.. The bass quantity and quality is even better than the D5nf... I showed this to my friend the other day...I swapped out the D5nf for the NF5Ex in the BR cabinets... and my friend was speechless..
Give it a try.. you may not want to use a helper woofer after that.Hi BTW,
Just a quick reply--I'll send you more detail in a PM.
I agree that the NF5ex drivers sound absolutely awesome. I've been listening to them for over a year in the Freddy cabinets that Scott and Dave designed and Rich built, and I love them. (I also love the D5nf drivers!)
But I also listened carefully to the Granada speaker at RMAF, and I think this OB design goes way beyond a speaker with a "helper woofer." It's really an outstanding speaker. (It was named "Best Sound of 2009 RMAF" by Robert Harley, Editor of The Absolute Sound magazine.) It's also due to the great DSP crossover that Joe used as well. Offhand, I can't think of a speaker I like better. I compared it directly with the $185,000 Focal Grande Utopias (powered by those giant mbl monobloc amps) using my own reference LP, and it was clearly better.
Anyway, I'm extremely lucky: I can enjoy the best of both worlds, an OB with the NF5ex and woofers, and the Maiko 2 with the D5nf. (Well, I'll BE very lucky once I find time to build them both! Life interferes WAY too much with building audio gear and listening to music! ;-)
Thanks,
Mike
Just a quick reply--I'll send you more detail in a PM.
I agree that the NF5ex drivers sound absolutely awesome. I've been listening to them for over a year in the Freddy cabinets that Scott and Dave designed and Rich built, and I love them. (I also love the D5nf drivers!)
But I also listened carefully to the Granada speaker at RMAF, and I think this OB design goes way beyond a speaker with a "helper woofer." It's really an outstanding speaker. (It was named "Best Sound of 2009 RMAF" by Robert Harley, Editor of The Absolute Sound magazine.) It's also due to the great DSP crossover that Joe used as well. Offhand, I can't think of a speaker I like better. I compared it directly with the $185,000 Focal Grande Utopias (powered by those giant mbl monobloc amps) using my own reference LP, and it was clearly better.
Anyway, I'm extremely lucky: I can enjoy the best of both worlds, an OB with the NF5ex and woofers, and the Maiko 2 with the D5nf. (Well, I'll BE very lucky once I find time to build them both! Life interferes WAY too much with building audio gear and listening to music! ;-)
Thanks,
Mike
No plans to bring speakers to CO but thanks for the invite Mike! I may try pine next. I miss the musical sound of those little Freddies, and the light weight.
Thanks for the tip about the NF5Ex, BTW. And thanks for explaining the pyramid, Dave.
Both Harley and Valin (both TAS) are naming Grenada contenders for best of show at CES on their blogs.
Thanks for the tip about the NF5Ex, BTW. And thanks for explaining the pyramid, Dave.
Both Harley and Valin (both TAS) are naming Grenada contenders for best of show at CES on their blogs.
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