jean-paul said:
And good has become even better as lately ultra low profile pins have become available that sink their entire length into a standard PCB hole, and yet still accept the pins of an opamp (or 1543).
Almost as good as no socket at all.
See Farnell, order nrs. 177845-850.
Expensive, of course ...
Attachments
Re: Re: analysis results
OPA627 is good but I think many people are influenced by expensive == good.
Are there 100 types which are better than NE5534 but cheaper than OPA627? At least many, many more types.
BTW: I have lot's of NE5534 for sale, real cheap (Fred!), and other opamps almost for free.
I say also that NE5534 gives you most hifi for the money.Tube_Dude said:
Yes...and is in the 10-20Khz that the 5534 shines...because the two poles compensation scheme that it uses...that permit more feedback in the upper octave...
No wonder...it was made for audio!
OPA627 is good but I think many people are influenced by expensive == good.
Are there 100 types which are better than NE5534 but cheaper than OPA627? At least many, many more types.
BTW: I have lot's of NE5534 for sale, real cheap (Fred!), and other opamps almost for free.
Re: opamps
(NE5532 costs 75 cents in the US and for audio is objectively a better than the $12 OPA627) they have a better chance of succeeding and staying interested, and this is a hobby I believe needs more members.
Two direct replacements right off the top of my head would be the National LM833 (dual) of LM837 (quad), although they don't quite measure up (distortion and load driving capabilities) they seem to posess low offset voltages for all you "direct coupled, no caps in the signal path" fans. The other is the only other opamp that I know equals the NE5532 in noise and distortion specs: the NJR2114 from New Japan Radio.
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You have chosen 4 of the worst sounding opamps as shining examples for ausio applications. Just look at the die schematic for a 5534/32 and you will note that they are full of devices. I am experienced with 35 years of experinece listening to a wide variety of audio devices and a professional engineer. If a piece of equipment doesn't sound right or good, it is often the 5532 or 2114 which is contributing to it; and this arises out of manufacturing cost considerations and theoretical s/n + thd. The 825 is , on the other hand a much lower gain, muach simpler device compare to the 5534 and does sound better regardless of origin.
I would ask forum members to comment on the sound of your opamps as opposed to the newer generation of higher performance, better sounding models. (825, 826, 2132, 2604 etc)
Curiously I agree with you about the 627 in one respect; I don't like the sound or price. But then it is a relatively slow high open loop gain device.
(NE5532 costs 75 cents in the US and for audio is objectively a better than the $12 OPA627) they have a better chance of succeeding and staying interested, and this is a hobby I believe needs more members.
Two direct replacements right off the top of my head would be the National LM833 (dual) of LM837 (quad), although they don't quite measure up (distortion and load driving capabilities) they seem to posess low offset voltages for all you "direct coupled, no caps in the signal path" fans. The other is the only other opamp that I know equals the NE5532 in noise and distortion specs: the NJR2114 from New Japan Radio.
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You have chosen 4 of the worst sounding opamps as shining examples for ausio applications. Just look at the die schematic for a 5534/32 and you will note that they are full of devices. I am experienced with 35 years of experinece listening to a wide variety of audio devices and a professional engineer. If a piece of equipment doesn't sound right or good, it is often the 5532 or 2114 which is contributing to it; and this arises out of manufacturing cost considerations and theoretical s/n + thd. The 825 is , on the other hand a much lower gain, muach simpler device compare to the 5534 and does sound better regardless of origin.
I would ask forum members to comment on the sound of your opamps as opposed to the newer generation of higher performance, better sounding models. (825, 826, 2132, 2604 etc)
Curiously I agree with you about the 627 in one respect; I don't like the sound or price. But then it is a relatively slow high open loop gain device.
opamps
Fmak,
I will reply to your posts in two parts.
1. Your idea of simpler "die design" of AD825 is completely absurd, no offense. As far as the amount of active compnents in an opamp, absolute rubbish again, I don't see any opamps with only one or two transistors on the die, that would be quite foolish now wouldn't it!
2. Again we go back to "subjective sound quality" of opamps based on their high price and an undefinable, unmeasurable mystique because they have 1000V/uS slew and 2GHZ Bandwidth. I'm sorry, my education and test equipment just won't let me buy into "Black Magic". Do some blind listening tests from a panel of your "golden ear" friends, compile the data and if their is any correlation of their responses (which there won't) or as you switch opamps they can "magically" tell which one is which (they won't ) then the whole concept of subjectivity is really quite flimsy isn't it. Like I said, I don't mean to offend, but if you can't back up what you say with scientific fact, then to me (yes, I am allowed an opinion too) it isn't worth the time spent typing it in this thread and your just misleading some people that already have limited knowledge of the subject material anyway.
Sincerely,
Brannon
Fmak,
I will reply to your posts in two parts.
1. Your idea of simpler "die design" of AD825 is completely absurd, no offense. As far as the amount of active compnents in an opamp, absolute rubbish again, I don't see any opamps with only one or two transistors on the die, that would be quite foolish now wouldn't it!
2. Again we go back to "subjective sound quality" of opamps based on their high price and an undefinable, unmeasurable mystique because they have 1000V/uS slew and 2GHZ Bandwidth. I'm sorry, my education and test equipment just won't let me buy into "Black Magic". Do some blind listening tests from a panel of your "golden ear" friends, compile the data and if their is any correlation of their responses (which there won't) or as you switch opamps they can "magically" tell which one is which (they won't ) then the whole concept of subjectivity is really quite flimsy isn't it. Like I said, I don't mean to offend, but if you can't back up what you say with scientific fact, then to me (yes, I am allowed an opinion too) it isn't worth the time spent typing it in this thread and your just misleading some people that already have limited knowledge of the subject material anyway.
Sincerely,
Brannon
Re: Op-Amps...
Methink the glorious data on the japanese op-amps(and other japanese equipment) is sole reason for the flat/dull/boring sound, known form the land of the rising sound since late '70's.
Good specs & measurements have been more important than sound.
ArneK
------------------------------------------------------------bmcevers said:
------------------------------------------fmak said:
Methink the glorious data on the japanese op-amps(and other japanese equipment) is sole reason for the flat/dull/boring sound, known form the land of the rising sound since late '70's.
Good specs & measurements have been more important than sound.
ArneK
Re: Re: opamps
if I read bmcevers correctly, he is saying that unless one can prove in a scientific way that one can statistically tells op-amps apart in sound quality, one better qualifies statements like those some have made in this thread "amp A sounds better than amp B".
I tend to agree. There are just simply way too much BS around in audio and we seriously need to settle down on facts (which may or may not be consistent with existing knowledge base) rather than "magic gold pens".
fmak said:
if I read bmcevers correctly, he is saying that unless one can prove in a scientific way that one can statistically tells op-amps apart in sound quality, one better qualifies statements like those some have made in this thread "amp A sounds better than amp B".
I tend to agree. There are just simply way too much BS around in audio and we seriously need to settle down on facts (which may or may not be consistent with existing knowledge base) rather than "magic gold pens".
Personally, when working as a scientist, it is part of my job to consider very thoroughly whether my detection system is adequate to distinguish between things that "measure" the same. Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. That's life.
Distortion analysers etc. are capable of measuring some specs very well, much better than what human hearing can distinguish.
Have you ever considered that there might be parameters yet to be discovered, that present distortion analysers are not so good at measuring?
There might be room for evolution in distortion analysis... especially considering that almost all new audio thingies measure acceptably in terms of SNR, THD etc.; but definately do not all sound nice!
Consider also the possibility that some kinds of distortion are less disturbing for the human sense of hearing than others - I mean tube stuff and vinyl can sound very nice, but never ever will measure up to one of the new, cheap compact stereo's with a cd-player and a minuscule power amp (which mostly sound terrible).
Which algorithm do distortion analysers use in order to weight different kinds of distortion, so as to determine which compromise will be least perterbing for the human (in real life, there will always be some distortion)?
Different red wines, beers or whiskeys may have very similar chemical composition (~measurably alike), yet be very different to the human sense of taste and smell (~subjective qualities).
Some people care about such subjective differences, others do not - and it is free for everyone to make his or her priorities.
In the end, quality audio is also a matter of priorities and compromises. For a simple one, large woofer cones can produce a tighter and louder bass response, yet are more prone to membrane breakup than small ones. Large power amps usually provide better dynamics and larger sound pressure, but also more noise (especially hiss) than small ones.
So audio is about finding the combination of gear that suits your hearing, your wallet, your home, your taste.
About finding what YOU think sounds nice.
Now what is nice? Well, up to you to decide. If you think that what measures well is your "nice", then fine - must be comfortable feeling you are listening to what you can prove is the best. It's just that others define "nice" in a more subjective way, and should not be disrespected for it.
For those who find that 5532 is the ultimate opamp, and like the sound, peace be with you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and their own taste.
Loads of audio gear come with that fellow in it, it's cheap, it's easy to get, it's versatile. Like most other components, its sound quality depends much on its environment.
So be happy and content that you need no more search for the right opamp.
I just have difficulties understanding why others are not free to their opinion about what-ever-nought part.
Personally, I can hear lots of differences between opamps, so I'll just have to take my time to decide which compromise I like best. It certainly depends not only on me, but also on the rest of my setup. And hard to say which is best - I mean is Coke better than 7up? A matter of taste!
That's my opinion - and I am entitled to it, just as eveyone else is.
As for the high-cost=high-quality, I think that accusation is unfair.
It is however true that as I will be using a very few opamps for a device, which would cost me at least 600$ if I were to buy it ready-made. And that therefore I am totally indifferent towards whether they cost 12$ or 2$ or even 75 cents. I'll never notice - but device manufacturers will.
If I really thought that the opa627 was best, than why would I be trying out anything cheaper now???
/cdl
i read some thread about "improving" audio cds buy freezing them or marking with some magic fluid etc......
its not only op amps
there are many people that believe in magic and they tend to confuse other people with their magic beliefs , plus many audio companies using these to sell their products
wake up guys
i'm not saying that all amps / op amps sound the same , for example when amplifying microphone signal then the op amp should be low noise - so the noise wound be heared after being amplified . if u are using 100 op amps in your signal path then they should be also low noise and distortion .........
its not only op amps
there are many people that believe in magic and they tend to confuse other people with their magic beliefs , plus many audio companies using these to sell their products
wake up guys
i'm not saying that all amps / op amps sound the same , for example when amplifying microphone signal then the op amp should be low noise - so the noise wound be heared after being amplified . if u are using 100 op amps in your signal path then they should be also low noise and distortion .........
cdl said:
Yes. That's why I am supportive of a listening test, not a measurement test, of various opamps. As such, I think the burden of proof goes to the person who make the statement that "A is better or different than B". So far, I have not seen any listening tests, scientifically carried out, that will support such a statement.
cdl said:
that doesn't mean that we should all tell the next person that a boombox driven into clipping sounds 10x better than a quality amp, just because that is our preference.
That statement may be true to some of us (even that I doubt it) but it is hardly true for most of us.
That is what I meant when I said one should qualify their statements.
As to tube vs. ss or even harmonics vs. odd harmonics, I thought I read somewhere that it is yet to be proven statistically. And personally I don't find tube sound to be superior to SS sound.
You know, I really don't understand the scientist vs. subjectivist argument. Haven't you all read or watched Contact?
To the scientists: You can't measure everything. You can't measure it accurately enough. You don't even know for sure if the current method is the right way to measure something.
To the subjectivists: Sometimes, you can measure it. Sometimes, it is accurate enough. Sometimes, it is correct type of measuring system.
As someone schooled in science and humanities and makes a living in product design, this only firms up my belief that PhDs should be taught some philosophy, engineers should be forced to take art class and literature majors should have calculus as a requirement for graduation.
ensen.
To the scientists: You can't measure everything. You can't measure it accurately enough. You don't even know for sure if the current method is the right way to measure something.
To the subjectivists: Sometimes, you can measure it. Sometimes, it is accurate enough. Sometimes, it is correct type of measuring system.
As someone schooled in science and humanities and makes a living in product design, this only firms up my belief that PhDs should be taught some philosophy, engineers should be forced to take art class and literature majors should have calculus as a requirement for graduation.
ensen.As someone schooled in science and humanities and makes a living in product design, this only firms up my belief that PhDs should be taught some philosophy, engineers should be forced to take art class and literature majors should have calculus as a requirement for graduation.
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I agree; although the more experienced scientists and engineers do recognise that design is an art based on experience and on an open mind.
It is the young turks or very job focussed individuals who see the world in black and white, and this applies to those from the humanities as well.
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I agree; although the more experienced scientists and engineers do recognise that design is an art based on experience and on an open mind.
It is the young turks or very job focussed individuals who see the world in black and white, and this applies to those from the humanities as well.
purplepeople hit the nail on the head
Just because a person has a EE degree does not make him hear any better. Just because you've built some equipment does not mean your equipment is art or it's sound is quality. Just because your an engineer and have worked in the electronics industry, does not mean you are an artisan or a craftsman. Some engineers never make it as there focus and beliefs are tilted many of us need to open our eyes passed the science.
Just because a person has a EE degree does not make him hear any better. Just because you've built some equipment does not mean your equipment is art or it's sound is quality. Just because your an engineer and have worked in the electronics industry, does not mean you are an artisan or a craftsman. Some engineers never make it as there focus and beliefs are tilted many of us need to open our eyes passed the science.
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