Hi everyone,
I am seeking sugestions for a quality midbass driver that will mate well with the Jordan JXR6 wideband driver in a resonably sized MLTL type enclosure? I do not need to go below 40Hz to 50Hz -3db on the bottom frequency, since I will be using subwoofers below that.
I would think a driver that is efficient enough to be used in unison with a coil that will roll it off around 100Hz. And still have the proper efficency to blend with the JXR6 in a two way speaker being driven by a single tube amplifer would be optimum?
A driver that has a quick pulse response that will keep up with the smaller JXR6.
The JX92S would be a possibility. But, the cost of $370 a pair plus around $35 shipping is making it prohibative for my budget after purchasing the JXR6.
Possibly the Neo-Phone driver?
Since I am somewhat technically challenged, I hope someone here can help?
Thanks for any and all suggestions.
Norris Wilson
I am seeking sugestions for a quality midbass driver that will mate well with the Jordan JXR6 wideband driver in a resonably sized MLTL type enclosure? I do not need to go below 40Hz to 50Hz -3db on the bottom frequency, since I will be using subwoofers below that.
I would think a driver that is efficient enough to be used in unison with a coil that will roll it off around 100Hz. And still have the proper efficency to blend with the JXR6 in a two way speaker being driven by a single tube amplifer would be optimum?
A driver that has a quick pulse response that will keep up with the smaller JXR6.
The JX92S would be a possibility. But, the cost of $370 a pair plus around $35 shipping is making it prohibative for my budget after purchasing the JXR6.
Possibly the Neo-Phone driver?
Since I am somewhat technically challenged, I hope someone here can help?
Thanks for any and all suggestions.
Norris Wilson
Hi,
If you want a sub I think it might be best with bass in closed box
This 10" AUDAX looks pretty good, and on buyout - and you might even not need that sub
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-605
If you want a sub I think it might be best with bass in closed box
This 10" AUDAX looks pretty good, and on buyout - and you might even not need that sub
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=299-605
Maybe the Seas H511? It has similar efficiency, and generally anything madisound puts in their kits ought to be decent. They sell it for $75 each.
If it were me I'd consider a higher crossover, like 200 to 250 Hz, the midwoofs would still only be covering a couple octaves or so. With a higher crossover freq, you could consider a real simple first order filter.
If it were me I'd consider a higher crossover, like 200 to 250 Hz, the midwoofs would still only be covering a couple octaves or so. With a higher crossover freq, you could consider a real simple first order filter.
Thanks Tinitus, the 10" Audax looks good. Especially since it cost less than $50 each, a good deal. I feel like I could easily get my desired -3db point around 50Hz in a sealed box. I will keep this woofer in mind.
Dumbass, I wanted to run the JXR6 full range without a filter of any kind. Do you feel like there would be a problem with a peak within the overlap of these two drivers with the midbass being rolled off around 200Hz at 6db? The JXR6 in a 2 liter sealed box will yield around 115Hz -3db without stuffing according to the information at the Jordan site. I am not sure how the effect of the sound quality of the JXR6 will be when loading it in a very small enclosure of 1 liter or so t roll it off at a higher frequency?
The SEAS P21RF\P looks good as well. Do you feel this driver would be best loaded in a sealed cabinet to obtain the best results for midbass duties?
I have access to 4 used Dynaudio 15W75 5.5" woofers. Do you think 2 of these woofers per side rolled off with a 6db slope under the JXR6 would be a good choice?
Any other recommendations for midwoofers?
Thanks
Norris
Dumbass, I wanted to run the JXR6 full range without a filter of any kind. Do you feel like there would be a problem with a peak within the overlap of these two drivers with the midbass being rolled off around 200Hz at 6db? The JXR6 in a 2 liter sealed box will yield around 115Hz -3db without stuffing according to the information at the Jordan site. I am not sure how the effect of the sound quality of the JXR6 will be when loading it in a very small enclosure of 1 liter or so t roll it off at a higher frequency?
The SEAS P21RF\P looks good as well. Do you feel this driver would be best loaded in a sealed cabinet to obtain the best results for midbass duties?
I have access to 4 used Dynaudio 15W75 5.5" woofers. Do you think 2 of these woofers per side rolled off with a 6db slope under the JXR6 would be a good choice?
Any other recommendations for midwoofers?
Thanks
Norris
Hi,
I think I have to correct my opinion about the Audax
Actually this 12" Pioneer seem to give much better result ..... about -6db/35hz..... I think its the one a member was very enthusiastic about
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-118
I think I have to correct my opinion about the Audax
Actually this 12" Pioneer seem to give much better result ..... about -6db/35hz..... I think its the one a member was very enthusiastic about
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=290-118
OK guys,
But I feel I will be loosing something when using a filter on the Jordan driver. I want to keep the midrange as pure as possible.
I would like to try the JXR6 without a filter first.
So, since the use of a passive filter for the midbass below, say 200Hz is problematic. Where the inductor could be a huge power sucking pig.
I would like to switch gears and propose something different.
I have the ability to biamp this 50Hz and up speaker using the chosen midbass driver and the Jordan JXR6.
I have been pondering the idea of possibly using a Marchand 12db XM44-EMB band pass electronic crossover on the midbass with a dedicated midbass amplifier.
http://www.marchandelec.com/xm44.html
Say, crossing it over from 50Hz on the bottom to 100Hz, or even 150Hz on top. Then, run the Jordan full range without a filter with a tube amplifier that has a dedicated volume control.
And using my subwoofers from 50Hz and down to keep the bass well controlled with impact.
Is this an exersize in chasing my tail? Or, would I be better off in using a subwoofer only with the JXR6 and be done with it?
For some reason, the mear size of the JXR6 does not give me the confidence that a sub-JXR6 combo would be best. I would think the Jordan will be lacking in the lower midrange and midbass region.
The only way to find this out, is to try it when I get the JXR6's.
I am just thinking out loud here.
Any suggestions other than I may be crazy?
Norris
But I feel I will be loosing something when using a filter on the Jordan driver. I want to keep the midrange as pure as possible.
I would like to try the JXR6 without a filter first.
So, since the use of a passive filter for the midbass below, say 200Hz is problematic. Where the inductor could be a huge power sucking pig.
I would like to switch gears and propose something different.
I have the ability to biamp this 50Hz and up speaker using the chosen midbass driver and the Jordan JXR6.
I have been pondering the idea of possibly using a Marchand 12db XM44-EMB band pass electronic crossover on the midbass with a dedicated midbass amplifier.
http://www.marchandelec.com/xm44.html
Say, crossing it over from 50Hz on the bottom to 100Hz, or even 150Hz on top. Then, run the Jordan full range without a filter with a tube amplifier that has a dedicated volume control.
And using my subwoofers from 50Hz and down to keep the bass well controlled with impact.
Is this an exersize in chasing my tail? Or, would I be better off in using a subwoofer only with the JXR6 and be done with it?
For some reason, the mear size of the JXR6 does not give me the confidence that a sub-JXR6 combo would be best. I would think the Jordan will be lacking in the lower midrange and midbass region.
The only way to find this out, is to try it when I get the JXR6's.
I am just thinking out loud here.
Any suggestions other than I may be crazy?
Norris
Well, thats everybodys dream...a crossoverless speaker with huge power ... otherwise your idea is cool, if done right .....well, I have thought of it myself
First, as you will biamp you wont loose any power because of a few filtercomponents...on the contrary....the Jordan isnt excactly high efficient and will need some power....and relieved from the lowend it will withstand high levels much better
Second, if you use a sensitive woofer like the pioneer you will actually gain some efficiency.....especially if you use it up to 500hz....actually, just adding a sub might do much worse than a simple filter.....and theres the bafflestep issue
Third, your nice 2" Jordan, which actually is midrange, wont have the power below 500hz, that is to exspect from a wellbalanced system ....
Forth, Its my impression that you expect "highend" sound ... think of this.... your Jordan combined with a 12" resembles a smaller version of the famous systems with a 15" and 2"horndriver
Last, you are afraid to loose the finesse of the Jordan.... good thinking, but theres a risk for that allready with biamping and active filters....allthough not directly connected to the Jordan, its still in the system to mess with what you hear..... keep it simple
First, as you will biamp you wont loose any power because of a few filtercomponents...on the contrary....the Jordan isnt excactly high efficient and will need some power....and relieved from the lowend it will withstand high levels much better
Second, if you use a sensitive woofer like the pioneer you will actually gain some efficiency.....especially if you use it up to 500hz....actually, just adding a sub might do much worse than a simple filter.....and theres the bafflestep issue
Third, your nice 2" Jordan, which actually is midrange, wont have the power below 500hz, that is to exspect from a wellbalanced system ....
Forth, Its my impression that you expect "highend" sound ... think of this.... your Jordan combined with a 12" resembles a smaller version of the famous systems with a 15" and 2"horndriver
Last, you are afraid to loose the finesse of the Jordan.... good thinking, but theres a risk for that allready with biamping and active filters....allthough not directly connected to the Jordan, its still in the system to mess with what you hear..... keep it simple
The JXR6 isn't designed to be used for that purpose but the JX92S is. I have heard the JX92S and was very impressed with the sound quality. But I think the JXR6 is reputed to excel the JX92S in certain categories.
Bi-amping is IMO a great idea, but of course requires that much more investment of time/money.
Thanks for the advice everyone.
I think I will pursue the active x-over route for the midbass and subwoofer frequencies. And run the Jordan JXR6 with a tube amp fullrange without a filter.
I have the needed amplification to do the job. But need to come up with the band pass active crossover and midbass driver.
I can borrow some Dynaudio Gemini MTM speakers that use two 15W-75's. I thought that I would go ahead and order the JXR6's and the XM-44EMB crossover. Then using the Dynaudio Gemini's for the midbass drivers until I figure out which midbass that I want to use. The Gemini's are suppose to go down to 55Hz -3db.
I figure a smaller driver like the 5.5" Dynaudio should give a detailed midbass and be quick enough to mate well with the Jordan 2".
I hope this will give me a good idea if this scheme will work out.
Any more ideas or input is most welcome.
Thanks
Norris
I think I will pursue the active x-over route for the midbass and subwoofer frequencies. And run the Jordan JXR6 with a tube amp fullrange without a filter.
I have the needed amplification to do the job. But need to come up with the band pass active crossover and midbass driver.
I can borrow some Dynaudio Gemini MTM speakers that use two 15W-75's. I thought that I would go ahead and order the JXR6's and the XM-44EMB crossover. Then using the Dynaudio Gemini's for the midbass drivers until I figure out which midbass that I want to use. The Gemini's are suppose to go down to 55Hz -3db.
I figure a smaller driver like the 5.5" Dynaudio should give a detailed midbass and be quick enough to mate well with the Jordan 2".
I hope this will give me a good idea if this scheme will work out.
Any more ideas or input is most welcome.
Thanks
Norris
Catching up ... I've been running a JXR6 in a 2 litre enclosure on its own for several months now. It doesn't have the low end weight and impact of the JX92 in a MLTL, but it isn't intended to. It sounds fine on its own if placed against a wall and you don't demaind too much volume - it starts to tail off below 120Hz and vanishes below 80Hz. It's a very quick, detailed driver. Maybe not as holographic as the JX92.
A 250Hz first order x/over should be fine, given that the old JX53 ran similar at 500Hz and doesn't have the lower resonance of the 6.
My overall feeling with the 6 is that is requires support from 200Hz down.
A 250Hz first order x/over should be fine, given that the old JX53 ran similar at 500Hz and doesn't have the lower resonance of the 6.
My overall feeling with the 6 is that is requires support from 200Hz down.
At present, I prefer the 92 as a system, in the 48" MLTL. Some of the extra depth to the image may be down to either the imaging in the bass, or it could be due to the cabinet I have the JXR6s mounted in. I really need to tidy up the boxes for the 6s before I can tell for sure. The JXR6, as I've written before, is much more clean in the HF, with a very delicate, electrostatic quality. The JX92 sounds brash in comparison. This is probably what Jim Griffin's ribbon/JX92 designs address. I can live with it so the 92 is still my main system.
Thanks Colin for your interesting comments.
It sounds as if I need to run my midbass drivers up to 200Hz.
But your comments about the JX92S in a 48" MLTL cabinet being your current favorite speakers due to its lower frequency extension and holographic sound qualities. Makes me pause about the direction that I am proposing with the JXR6.
In my limited experience, I found that one usually has to compromise one frequency extreme for the other with wideband drivers, extended highs or lows.
The main concern that I have in crossing over passively at 200Hz or higher with a midbasss driver and the JXR6. Is the possible peak created with such an overlap when running the JXR6 full range. And the possible problem with the drivers functioning at different efficiencies and volume levels.
I do not want to try and pad anything down passively.
The 85db 1watt/ 1meter efficiency of the JXR6 makes efficiency mating between the drivers a little easier when factoring in the loss due to an inductor used with the midbass driver.
And my corcern if I use an actively filtered midbass with op-amps in the signal path crossed over as high as 200Hz 12db. Is the possibility of the lack of cohesion of the two drivers blending in this lower vocals region causing a musical disconnect. Being degraded by the op-amps in the lower vocal region.
Since I have limited funds, and have to look at the total financial outlay. It comes down to making the decision of which path to follow. Or, compromise that is easiest to live with. Choosing a compromised lack of detail with the JX92S? Or, the possiblity of lower frequency musical disconnect with the JXR6 and midbass scheme.
Both of these speaker schemes will cost approximately the same.
JXR6, midbass driver and filter, active 12db, or pasive at 6db with inductors. Or, the JX92S design with ribbon tweeter as Jim Griffin has so kindly shared with us in a 48" MLTL cabinet.
Such choices can make a person a little neurotic. Or, maybe I started out that way.
I think the simplest path that is most musically cohesive would be the right choice.
Obviously my experience in speaker or crossover design is VERY limited.
Any further comments will be most welcome.
Norris
It sounds as if I need to run my midbass drivers up to 200Hz.
But your comments about the JX92S in a 48" MLTL cabinet being your current favorite speakers due to its lower frequency extension and holographic sound qualities. Makes me pause about the direction that I am proposing with the JXR6.
In my limited experience, I found that one usually has to compromise one frequency extreme for the other with wideband drivers, extended highs or lows.
The main concern that I have in crossing over passively at 200Hz or higher with a midbasss driver and the JXR6. Is the possible peak created with such an overlap when running the JXR6 full range. And the possible problem with the drivers functioning at different efficiencies and volume levels.
I do not want to try and pad anything down passively.
The 85db 1watt/ 1meter efficiency of the JXR6 makes efficiency mating between the drivers a little easier when factoring in the loss due to an inductor used with the midbass driver.
And my corcern if I use an actively filtered midbass with op-amps in the signal path crossed over as high as 200Hz 12db. Is the possibility of the lack of cohesion of the two drivers blending in this lower vocals region causing a musical disconnect. Being degraded by the op-amps in the lower vocal region.
Since I have limited funds, and have to look at the total financial outlay. It comes down to making the decision of which path to follow. Or, compromise that is easiest to live with. Choosing a compromised lack of detail with the JX92S? Or, the possiblity of lower frequency musical disconnect with the JXR6 and midbass scheme.
Both of these speaker schemes will cost approximately the same.
JXR6, midbass driver and filter, active 12db, or pasive at 6db with inductors. Or, the JX92S design with ribbon tweeter as Jim Griffin has so kindly shared with us in a 48" MLTL cabinet.
Such choices can make a person a little neurotic. Or, maybe I started out that way.
I think the simplest path that is most musically cohesive would be the right choice.
Obviously my experience in speaker or crossover design is VERY limited.
Any further comments will be most welcome.
Norris
To get an intuitive feeling for the excursion requirements of a direct-radiating speaker, download this Excel spreadsheet:Norris Wilson said:
http://linkwitzlab.com/spl_max1.xls
(Use the "monopole" columns.)
I think you'll see why some of us recommend a crossover at or above 200Hz.
If you choose to run the JXR6 full-range, then the crossover frequency is fixed for you. To me, it makes more sense to let the midbass driver take more of the burden off the two-inch driver.
An Alternative JX92S MLTL Suggestion
Norris,
Let me suggest a plan of attack for you if you are open to suggestions for a lower cost approach than building my MLTL with a ribbon design. What I suggest is that you build my Jordan JX92S with a ribbon MLTL design as is but initially just use the JX92S in the box without the ribbon. That is don't cut out the hole for the JX92S nor use the crossover network. Thus you would be using the JX92S fullrange. I can suggest a baffle step circuit to improve the balance of the speaker so it would sound good in-room away from the walls.
If you like the sound from the JX92S full range then just listen and be happy. But later as you have a bit more money, then you can add the ribbons to your boxes. At that time you can cut the tweeter holes and insert the crossover networks and you would be good to go.
You'll be very pleased with the JX92S in the MLTL box run full range and it alleviates your money layout issue a bit.
Jim
Norris,
Let me suggest a plan of attack for you if you are open to suggestions for a lower cost approach than building my MLTL with a ribbon design. What I suggest is that you build my Jordan JX92S with a ribbon MLTL design as is but initially just use the JX92S in the box without the ribbon. That is don't cut out the hole for the JX92S nor use the crossover network. Thus you would be using the JX92S fullrange. I can suggest a baffle step circuit to improve the balance of the speaker so it would sound good in-room away from the walls.
If you like the sound from the JX92S full range then just listen and be happy. But later as you have a bit more money, then you can add the ribbons to your boxes. At that time you can cut the tweeter holes and insert the crossover networks and you would be good to go.
You'll be very pleased with the JX92S in the MLTL box run full range and it alleviates your money layout issue a bit.
Jim
Thanks again for some common sense suggestions.
Dumbass, I see when pluging the JXR6 into the Linkwitz SPL spreadsheet. There is a cliff like drop off in output below the 200Hz region. This helps me to visualize exactly what you and others have been trying to get across to me. Basically, the JXR6 is an extended midrange driver.
I am starting to think there may be a little more to getting my midbass scheme to work than my limited experience would allow.
The JX92S MLTL that Jim has suggested is looking more of my speed, simpler.
Jim, could you guide me to a link that will allow me to look at your baffle step circuit? Or, email me at nwwdlw(at)netzero(dot)net
I would very much like to research this idea further.
I have not heard the JX92S driver. But, I have friend in Seattle who built a pair of the triangular MLTL boxes this past year. His enthusiasm and comments that it is the most musically coherent speaker that he has ever owned. Has inspired me to search down this path.
I missed you at GPAF this past May in Tulsa. I came in for a quick look while you were giving your siminar and your room was locked.
I really wanted to hear your line array speakers. Possibly next May in Dallas will be a better oppotunity for me.
That is, if you are going to be present?
Thanks again everyone for your input.
Jim, I am leaning more towards your suggestion of the JX92S in an MLTL without tweeters to start. After looking at your suggestion, it looks to be the wiser and simpler decision for me.
Norris
Dumbass, I see when pluging the JXR6 into the Linkwitz SPL spreadsheet. There is a cliff like drop off in output below the 200Hz region. This helps me to visualize exactly what you and others have been trying to get across to me. Basically, the JXR6 is an extended midrange driver.
I am starting to think there may be a little more to getting my midbass scheme to work than my limited experience would allow.
The JX92S MLTL that Jim has suggested is looking more of my speed, simpler.
Jim, could you guide me to a link that will allow me to look at your baffle step circuit? Or, email me at nwwdlw(at)netzero(dot)net
I would very much like to research this idea further.
I have not heard the JX92S driver. But, I have friend in Seattle who built a pair of the triangular MLTL boxes this past year. His enthusiasm and comments that it is the most musically coherent speaker that he has ever owned. Has inspired me to search down this path.
I missed you at GPAF this past May in Tulsa. I came in for a quick look while you were giving your siminar and your room was locked.
I really wanted to hear your line array speakers. Possibly next May in Dallas will be a better oppotunity for me.
That is, if you are going to be present?
Thanks again everyone for your input.
Jim, I am leaning more towards your suggestion of the JX92S in an MLTL without tweeters to start. After looking at your suggestion, it looks to be the wiser and simpler decision for me.
Norris
Norris,
Sounds like your plans are settling a bit. The JX92S is a good choice
A simple baffle step comp circuit for my MLTL (or mini-monitor for that matter as it is essentially a function of the baffle width) is to use a 1.5 mH inductor in parallel with a 4 ohms resistor. This circuit is then placed in series with the positive lead of each speaker. This circuit effectively allows the low frequencies to pass with minimal attenuation while the higher frequencies are shelved down by 3 DB. You can vary the resistor value (up to 8 ohms) to vary the BSC shelf from 3 dB (4 ohms) to a full 6 dB (8 ohms).
Too bad that we missed connection at the GPAF this spring. I haven't yet decided about the Dallas meeting next year at this point but it is a possibility. But dragging big line arrays around the country isn't a fun experience though. We'll see.
Jim
Sounds like your plans are settling a bit. The JX92S is a good choice
A simple baffle step comp circuit for my MLTL (or mini-monitor for that matter as it is essentially a function of the baffle width) is to use a 1.5 mH inductor in parallel with a 4 ohms resistor. This circuit is then placed in series with the positive lead of each speaker. This circuit effectively allows the low frequencies to pass with minimal attenuation while the higher frequencies are shelved down by 3 DB. You can vary the resistor value (up to 8 ohms) to vary the BSC shelf from 3 dB (4 ohms) to a full 6 dB (8 ohms).
Too bad that we missed connection at the GPAF this spring. I haven't yet decided about the Dallas meeting next year at this point but it is a possibility. But dragging big line arrays around the country isn't a fun experience though. We'll see.
Jim
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