I'm guessing you blew your jbl in your T48 because it was not high-passed? (well that, and I'm guessing you were trying to get something below 60hz out of it....) ProSpeakers Forum - Fitzmaurice Titan 48 - Wayne Parham, October 21, 2007 at 14:31:26
One of the advantages of the 50" long TH that uses the dual kickers, is the acceptable excursion down to 30hz. (I don't know of many 12v systems that actually high pass)
Cheapest thought for you, is to buy a 3015lf for your T48, high pass it, only ask of it what it is made to put out, and put the dual kickers in your boat. (or even better, use the 3015lf in a TH, like screamerusa's, and sell your T48 cabinet to some band.)
However, I don't know if cheapest option is what you are after....
oh I am sure that is what it was.. i think I had the high pass @ 30hz.. i shudda used the 50hz.. I am assuming from reading all the posts the 3015lf is the way to go for most applications.. Or is there better.. I have ample room in my home for even a little larger setup regarding width and height but my depth behind my tv area would be limited to about 25-28".. Also I will have the th for the boat done by most likely this evening so we can run some measurements and if my ears are not bleeding maybe get some thoughts on how to squeak out a couple extra dB's 
There are better drivers than the 3015lf for sure. However, in a T48, it's the go-to driver. The 4015lf will take more thermal, but less xmax.
As to behind your TV, how about this for insane spl levels?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/131852-live-sound-specific-tapped-horn-thread-54.html
I think that would be better than a T48.
And again, the high pass is your friend...
As to behind your TV, how about this for insane spl levels?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/subwoofers/131852-live-sound-specific-tapped-horn-thread-54.html
I think that would be better than a T48.
And again, the high pass is your friend...
Isn't hornresp nice... THANKS DAVID!!!! You measured within a db of the hornresp prediction. (and you were probably measuring c-weighted, which means that at 50hz for example, you have to add about a db to correct to flat, and add about 2db at 40hz) Which means that your box is spot on the sim.
BTW, that nice 'deep' sound is the 50-60hz hump that the TH gives you vs the roll off at those freq from your sealed boxes.
6db is easy, double cabinets, double power in. What space do you have on the side of the boat, where your third kicker was?
The hard part, is that you probably don't have the amount of space you need to do this.....
Best guess, be happy with 124, and do a couple quick tests. (outdoors obviously) Sit in the front of the boat, and see how loud the bass is, now go around behind the boat the same distance. The directivity of the TH, and it's location centered at the back of the boat, should keep your bass more 'in the boat' so to speak. I personally think you'll have more 'usable' bass at 124, than if you came up with some other non tapped horn arrangement that could actually hit 130 at 1m.
And to think... with a nice acoustic cloth grill cover to match your boat carpet covering the opening.... it's 124db of invisible bass. Now THAT's something to be proud of...
post pictures of your efforts please, and remember, the high pass is your friend. You want more spl's, you need to high pass... If you set to 60hz HP at 24db/oct, you may be able to crank up the power and hit 130, but be careful of burning coils... (I don't advise doing this, I think it'll sound like crap.... but it is theoretically possible. Personally I think you should high pass at 40hz)
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If you want to hit 130 db you need high power handling and high efficiency. I did a quick sim and you can hit that hard with your amp and some AE pseakers drivers. A pair of TD12x in a 6th order bandpass with 2kw can reach 134 db and an F3 of 54 Hz. You need a high pass to pull it off as the driver is using 28mm p-p excursion. The tricky bit is the vents and those drivers will blow the budget. The nice thing with the bandpass is the drivers are very protected - even more so than the TH.
How much output do your mids have?
How much output do your mids have?
mids are very loud.. running 10 6.5" polks with a total of 1000 watts.. not much you can change on a boat in terms of mids and highs unless i wanna really start chopping the interior and messing with the tower setup .. I guess the only question would be if we can switch out subs on the 50x16x10 box .. i might have an extra 5" on the length to go to 55" but that is the max.. Let me know thoughts..
I checked a couple different drivers, and in the limited space you have, there's not much additional spl to be had... This cabinet is xmax limited at 50hz, not power limited, which is why I ask about your settings. If you had a dbx or dcx2496 and can put a small notch at 50hz, and high pass 48db/oct at 35hz, I think you can realistically get to upper 120's, maybe even hitting 130 solid, which is your stated goal. An advantage of a TH, is the cooling effect on the driver, so that will help when you start leaning on it heavy.
I was actually very surprised how well those kickers modeled in a small TH. I'm kinda thinking of folding up a TH-micromini or screamersusa mini-fury box pa style cabinet based on that kicker driver, just for another ultra small pa option. So, I'm appreciative you brought them to my attention.
Have you played any music through it? if so, what were your high pass and low pass settings? what dsp do you have to work with?
I was actually very surprised how well those kickers modeled in a small TH. I'm kinda thinking of folding up a TH-micromini or screamersusa mini-fury box pa style cabinet based on that kicker driver, just for another ultra small pa option. So, I'm appreciative you brought them to my attention.
Have you played any music through it? if so, what were your high pass and low pass settings? what dsp do you have to work with?
my amplifier will do 2000 watts rms into 2 ohms and i have a competition setting into which i can do 2400 rms if i really want to push the amp.. high pass right now is 30hz and low pass is 120hz. music currently sounds great.. my only dsp is thru the headunit of which i have a kenwood excelon.. Little different than what most people who do pro audio are working with but so far this has been a fun experiment. my highs by themselves can hit 116 db @ 2meters.. normally the setup is such that I pull up to shore where 500-700 boats are on any given weekend and we turn the music up as loud as we can for about 8 hours and sunbath, play volleyball and drink heavy . so overall sound quality is not as important as is db's pictures attached to explain.. lol pretty much 80's rock and hip hop music is played all day.
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my 2c.
your best place to put your money right now is a dcx2496, not in amps, subs, or anything else.
It'll make more of a difference in spl's than you think.
Your amp most likely has 12db/oct crossovers, the dcx can go up to 48db/oct.
What this means is that a dcx will save your system from a 28hz dnb note, that your current 30hz amp high pass will not.
Set your subs up with 48db/oct LR high pass at 38hz. Add 3db, q6-q8 50hz notch, 100hz, 24db/oct LR Low pass. (I like the sound of the LR crossovers much better than the butterworth)
Set your tops at 100hz 24db/oct L/R high pass, and add eq, etc to your hearts content. Since you have 6 outputs from the dcx, another amp for mid tops may be in your future....
You can set limiters to save your system, time align your multiple mid/highs, and all kinds of other stuff that will take this to a better level than you are at today.
your best place to put your money right now is a dcx2496, not in amps, subs, or anything else.
It'll make more of a difference in spl's than you think.
Your amp most likely has 12db/oct crossovers, the dcx can go up to 48db/oct.
What this means is that a dcx will save your system from a 28hz dnb note, that your current 30hz amp high pass will not.
Set your subs up with 48db/oct LR high pass at 38hz. Add 3db, q6-q8 50hz notch, 100hz, 24db/oct LR Low pass. (I like the sound of the LR crossovers much better than the butterworth)
Set your tops at 100hz 24db/oct L/R high pass, and add eq, etc to your hearts content. Since you have 6 outputs from the dcx, another amp for mid tops may be in your future....
You can set limiters to save your system, time align your multiple mid/highs, and all kinds of other stuff that will take this to a better level than you are at today.
Looks like a lot of fun!
I asked about the mids because there comes a point where more bass is ridiculous. If your mids can only hit 100 db and you don't need 130 db in the bass! But then this is outdoors so you really can't have too much. I'd say running the bass about 15 db hot is probably about right. So 116 db mids and 130 db bass.
I'm not familiar with your mids, but if they are like most 6.5" mids you probably only get about 88db efficiency out of them. Pro mids of the same size are more like 97 db efficient. In other words, one of them is about as efficient as your 10. (Pinch of salt - I haven't seen their specs.)
So lets say you are getting 116 db out of 10 drivers at 2m. Actually lets work it out for 8. 1kw into 8 drivers at 2m with 88db sens > 121 db. Why the 5 db difference? Some of that will be power compression, measurement technique, etc. With pro mids you'd get at least 10 db more. You probably don't want to mess things up, but if you want to go to the next level of insanely loud, that's how you would do it.
If you were really nuts you'd probably also use a compression driver. You can get up to 114 db out of just 1w with them - the kind that you find in a large cinema where they need to easily hit 105 db at a distance.
The catch with those mids is they prefer crossing to woofers around 300 Hz.
If I were starting from scratch in your situation, I'd start with compression drivers in horns for the treble with 6.5" pro mids. I'd run them active as it's easy to do with car amps and the CDs will need very little power. You could even have a pair of mini monitor size boxes you can put up on the bars when you stop and point them where you like. I'd then cram in as much bass as I can like you have done, but ideally with some woofers that can run up higher than the THs, ie 200 - 300 Hz.
I did some bandpass sims last night and managed to come up with 134 db with a pair of 12" drivers that will fit in the space you have. The drivers are expensive though, and the bandpass won't cross high enough for the pro mids. I think the reason for more output than the TH is that we are trading in some extension. The bandpass trades some extension in order to squeeze out chest pounding midbass punch. The big challenge is getting the vents to work at such high output.
Nothing wrong with what you're doing, and what others have suggested. I'm just entertaining the idea of hitting the max SPL possible.
Happy boat partying!
I asked about the mids because there comes a point where more bass is ridiculous. If your mids can only hit 100 db and you don't need 130 db in the bass! But then this is outdoors so you really can't have too much. I'd say running the bass about 15 db hot is probably about right. So 116 db mids and 130 db bass.
I'm not familiar with your mids, but if they are like most 6.5" mids you probably only get about 88db efficiency out of them. Pro mids of the same size are more like 97 db efficient. In other words, one of them is about as efficient as your 10. (Pinch of salt - I haven't seen their specs.)
So lets say you are getting 116 db out of 10 drivers at 2m. Actually lets work it out for 8. 1kw into 8 drivers at 2m with 88db sens > 121 db. Why the 5 db difference? Some of that will be power compression, measurement technique, etc. With pro mids you'd get at least 10 db more. You probably don't want to mess things up, but if you want to go to the next level of insanely loud, that's how you would do it.
If you were really nuts you'd probably also use a compression driver. You can get up to 114 db out of just 1w with them - the kind that you find in a large cinema where they need to easily hit 105 db at a distance.
The catch with those mids is they prefer crossing to woofers around 300 Hz.
If I were starting from scratch in your situation, I'd start with compression drivers in horns for the treble with 6.5" pro mids. I'd run them active as it's easy to do with car amps and the CDs will need very little power. You could even have a pair of mini monitor size boxes you can put up on the bars when you stop and point them where you like. I'd then cram in as much bass as I can like you have done, but ideally with some woofers that can run up higher than the THs, ie 200 - 300 Hz.
I did some bandpass sims last night and managed to come up with 134 db with a pair of 12" drivers that will fit in the space you have. The drivers are expensive though, and the bandpass won't cross high enough for the pro mids. I think the reason for more output than the TH is that we are trading in some extension. The bandpass trades some extension in order to squeeze out chest pounding midbass punch. The big challenge is getting the vents to work at such high output.
Nothing wrong with what you're doing, and what others have suggested. I'm just entertaining the idea of hitting the max SPL possible.
Happy boat partying!
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thanks for the help.. if we can find a sub under 150 a piece.. i am in .. I also will have an active crossover processor by the end of the week.. Looking at an audio control mobile system such as the 6XS.. the behringher won't work because I am on a boat and its 12v .. no AC here.. Hey by the way can one of you hornresp genius's sketch something up for a side port TH for just one of the "kicker" subs.. specs I think are still on page 2.. would like 115 + spl with good depth in down to 40-hz area if possible.. Thanks!! lets keep working on gettting to 130 spl on the boat in the meantime one idea at a time..
you are running PA levels, you need a pa processor, even if it means a 12v inverter to run it...
I've done 12v pa, but never without dsp processing.... Unless your 12v solution can do everything a dcx2496 can... skip it. (the audio control can't, and I love audio control, I have an eql in my truck for eq.) The PFM is only 18db/oct cheb, which is a far cry from the 48db/oct LR in the dcx.
Exact same size box for a single looks really good. A folded arrangement would make a nice 2'x2'x1' sub. Attached is the spl response 2 drivers vs 1 in the same cab at 28v in 2pi. If you shorten it a little you can pick up a couple db in the 50-60hz range, which is what I'd personally do for a single driver cabinet.
what do you have in mind for the 3rd kicker???
and the answer is no, I haven't found any driver under $150 that can beat the kickers by enough to worry about in the limited cabinet space you have. At this point the cabinet size is limiting your spl, so other drivers really doesn't buy you much in that size of TH.
Loud, Low, Small, pick any 2. Since you are 'small' in terms of cabinet space that means your only options are to trade low for loud.
I've done 12v pa, but never without dsp processing.... Unless your 12v solution can do everything a dcx2496 can... skip it. (the audio control can't, and I love audio control, I have an eql in my truck for eq.) The PFM is only 18db/oct cheb, which is a far cry from the 48db/oct LR in the dcx.
Exact same size box for a single looks really good. A folded arrangement would make a nice 2'x2'x1' sub. Attached is the spl response 2 drivers vs 1 in the same cab at 28v in 2pi. If you shorten it a little you can pick up a couple db in the 50-60hz range, which is what I'd personally do for a single driver cabinet.
what do you have in mind for the 3rd kicker???
and the answer is no, I haven't found any driver under $150 that can beat the kickers by enough to worry about in the limited cabinet space you have. At this point the cabinet size is limiting your spl, so other drivers really doesn't buy you much in that size of TH.
Loud, Low, Small, pick any 2. Since you are 'small' in terms of cabinet space that means your only options are to trade low for loud.
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ok I am upping my budget on the boat project.. need more sound... any ideas?? I still have up to 55" for length of the horn box 16 for depth and 10" high.. must have the port on the side which is 10" high or could have a side and top combination as shown in pictures on previous page.. Please help the cause .. thanks!! FYI I did just put in the 6xs crossover with the subsonic which seemed to help as I am able to bring wattage up a little bit higher now without fears of a song dropping a death note to my subs..
Since this isn't about sound quality
rather just volume level. Do a push pull type manifold with the best drivers your budget will allow. Take an actively cross these over at 60 Hz and push the **** out of them. Ironically sound quality will be good since it would be in a PP enclosure reducing distortion. Something like a pair of the Ciare 12SW. IE High RMS power levels and excursion. Use these up to 150-200 Hz. Which will allow allot more juice into your mid highs.
rather just volume level. Do a push pull type manifold with the best drivers your budget will allow. Take an actively cross these over at 60 Hz and push the **** out of them. Ironically sound quality will be good since it would be in a PP enclosure reducing distortion. Something like a pair of the Ciare 12SW. IE High RMS power levels and excursion. Use these up to 150-200 Hz. Which will allow allot more juice into your mid highs.
Here's DJks PPSL box.
High Efficiency Speaker Asylum - Plan - djk - December 29, 2008 at 16:17:55
As I said earlier I wouldn't have it go so low.
Cut off at 60 Hz. That way you can push it harder.
High Efficiency Speaker Asylum - Plan - djk - December 29, 2008 at 16:17:55
As I said earlier I wouldn't have it go so low.
Cut off at 60 Hz. That way you can push it harder.
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