Ah! So Isopropyl Alcohol is saving us the rinse step and traditional detergent are not; right?
Yes, you should probably do a major rinse if you're using a substantial amount of detergent in your cleaning solution.
IPA will evaporate on its without leaving its own residue. But some people using just water and IPA still prefer to do a thorough rinse in a separate bath, to further reduce ppm of contaminants from the cleaning step. Not a big deal to me, so I just rinse off floaters as I remove the LPs from the bath using my filter outlet hose.
Best,
B B
IPA will evaporate on its without leaving its own residue. But some people using just water and IPA still prefer to do a thorough rinse in a separate bath, to further reduce ppm of contaminants from the cleaning step. Not a big deal to me, so I just rinse off floaters as I remove the LPs from the bath using my filter outlet hose.
Best,
B B
That's probably not deep enough. You really want a working distance at least an inch from the tank bottom, and you obviously can't fill the tank up to the top.
That's also a lot of coin to spend on a machine that only operates at 37khz. The P series are the dual frequency units that also operate at 80khz.
Cheers
B B
You are right! Thank you so much for the help.
I'll post pictures when I wash the first LP.
I posted this pic three weeks ago and have since cleaned around 200 records.
All previously cleaned on a DIY RCM
Unfortunately I can't post pics now to show my woodwork rotater but it revolves at 1 rev in 10.30.
5 litres of Diggers demineralised [?], 3% Iso and 12 drops of Photo flo.
I measured the tank and now have 30mm spacing between 3 records. That gives equal spacing between tank sides and records.
I rinse and wet vac on the RCM.
How do you air dry? When I lift the records out there's a lot of water. And a tide mark.
My records have never sounded so good. Better than new. I've used the RCM for 15 years and thought it was doing the job.
The improvement is not subtle... blackier blacks, breathier breath, air, etc.
I use a very pointy stylus I wonder if the 80hz machine gets to the bottom of the groove?
Another thing is I have no static! Even after a pass on the RCM.
I don't know why that is.
I haven't cleaned any grungy records so don't know how the 80hz works on them.
Wish I could post pics you should see my setup ha!
This is my woodworker rotator.
Magnetic coupling to the record holder. I made three of them so I can load them up and keep cleaning while I'm rinsing.
The motor was $5 from ebay 1RPM so I made a 10/1 gearbox out of plywood offcuts.
I know this looks hokey but it was cheap and all it's doing is rotating records through the 80hz Vibrato.
As I said before my records have never sounded so good.
Magnetic coupling to the record holder. I made three of them so I can load them up and keep cleaning while I'm rinsing.
The motor was $5 from ebay 1RPM so I made a 10/1 gearbox out of plywood offcuts.
I know this looks hokey but it was cheap and all it's doing is rotating records through the 80hz Vibrato.
As I said before my records have never sounded so good.
Rinse & Dry
Yes! right formula does not need rinse. But let's assume no vacuum cleaning machine and rinse is needed.
What are the best options for rinse & dry then?
For Rinse:
a) Use a rinse tank?
b) Hand sprayer; pump type?
For touch less Dry:
a) Use air dry but long wait and risk of air dust settling back?
b) Cool hair dryer but risk of sand blast of air dust again (why is this not a problem with fans used in Audio Desk and Klaudio?)
Yes! right formula does not need rinse. But let's assume no vacuum cleaning machine and rinse is needed.
What are the best options for rinse & dry then?
For Rinse:
a) Use a rinse tank?
b) Hand sprayer; pump type?
For touch less Dry:
a) Use air dry but long wait and risk of air dust settling back?
b) Cool hair dryer but risk of sand blast of air dust again (why is this not a problem with fans used in Audio Desk and Klaudio?)
I am trying to solve this problem myself!
The LPs come out of my 60Khz Sonix IV tank looking 'clean as'. First off, I put the spindle with 6 LPs on it, straight into my 'Dryer Cube' and gave it 10 minutes (spindle rotating whilst the fan was blowing). When I listened to the first batch of records, I felt there was an annoying level of HF hiss.
So I did a 2nd batch and this time let them air dry. Same problem - so the hiss is not the result of the fan 'sand blasting' the surface of the LP! So I think the hiss must be caused by gunk in solution ... which settles to the bottom of the grooves and is left behind when the water evaporates.
So for the 3rd batch, I used my Nitty Gritty to vacuum dry the wet record surfaces. Result - silence! Which is a right royal PITA - as I wanted, like you, for US cleaning to be 'touch-less'.
So, next experiment is to see whether using a 1 micron filter in the water filter loop - instead of the current ~100 micron aquarium filter - will remove the gunk which is in solution, so that nothing is left in the grooves when the water had gone. If this next batch of LPs has no hiss after a pass through the Dryer Cube ... then 'gunk' was the problem! And I will be very happy, as touch-less cleaning will have been achieved!
But if I still hear that hiss ... then drying by Nitty Gritty will be the only way.
So your point b) is a very good question. Why doesn't anybody report any problems with the fan drying in the AD and Klaudio RCMs?
Andy
New,
Don't make this harder than it is.
Rinsing:
- You can use a rinse tank, sure.
- I use the return line on my filter system to rinse off floaters that may be present as I remove the LPs from the tank.
Drying:
- Air dry is fine and produces outstanding results for me. Very little dust will settle, particularly if you stand the records vertically. There is no background hiss that appears from doing this. I've posted before and after recordings from my cleaning, with air drying. The improvement is undeniable.
- You can run a forced-air dry setup through a fine filter and you won't be blowing dust on the records. Regardless, there is no "sand-blast" effect with any household dryer and household air. The air velocity involved is not going to do any damage. And any dust that is airborne certainly isn't "sand" and has very little mass.
B B
Simplicity is complex!
I am actually trying to keep it simple Goal is to have a touch-less workflow. No brushes, no vacuum machines, no cloths...etc. Instead of filtering I plan to do batch of LPs and then throw out the distilled water.
In industry, it seems ultrasonic cleaning is a four step procedure. Pre-rinse, ultrasonic cleaning (with chemicals), rinse and drying. This is the workflow I may set up for eBay/flea market LPs. New or once cleaned via four step method then can just be routine-cleaned via simple distilled water ultrasonic cleaning and a fan drying; few specks of house dust collected during playback should not need any chemicals.
Owners of Klaudio seem happy with no chemical distilled water ultrasonic cleaning and fan drying.
I am actually trying to keep it simple
Goal is to have a touch-less workflow. No brushes, no vacuum machines, no cloths...etc. Instead of filtering I plan to do batch of LPs and then throw out the distilled water.In industry, it seems ultrasonic cleaning is a four step procedure. Pre-rinse, ultrasonic cleaning (with chemicals), rinse and drying. This is the workflow I may set up for eBay/flea market LPs. New or once cleaned via four step method then can just be routine-cleaned via simple distilled water ultrasonic cleaning and a fan drying; few specks of house dust collected during playback should not need any chemicals.
Owners of Klaudio seem happy with no chemical distilled water ultrasonic cleaning and fan drying.
Ilford Ilfotol
I used Ilford Ilfotol (wetting agent), 1:200 as per its instruction. It was way too much for rinse. Too much foam. I had to use distilled water to rinse the Ilfotol rinse.
Then I used Ilfotol in 1:2000 and this time it was good. This comes out to 0.05%, exactly what is recommended for Tergitol at Library of Congress's website.
I think the problem was not the ratio of 1:200 but the water itself. 1:200 is recommended for tap water. Distilled water proved too pure/soft for it and it created foam.
Because it is yellowish fluid, now I am not sure about Ilford Ilfotol altogether. What is the color of Tergitol?
I used Ilford Ilfotol (wetting agent), 1:200 as per its instruction. It was way too much for rinse. Too much foam. I had to use distilled water to rinse the Ilfotol rinse.
Then I used Ilfotol in 1:2000 and this time it was good. This comes out to 0.05%, exactly what is recommended for Tergitol at Library of Congress's website.
I think the problem was not the ratio of 1:200 but the water itself. 1:200 is recommended for tap water. Distilled water proved too pure/soft for it and it created foam.
Because it is yellowish fluid, now I am not sure about Ilford Ilfotol altogether. What is the color of Tergitol?
Most tergitols are clear. I use 15-S-7 (recommended by the Library of Congress Care, Handling, and Storage of Audio Visual Materials - Collections Care - (Preservation, Library of Congress)) and it is clear both concentrated and diluted. The 15-S-9 is also clear while the 15-S-3 is milky when added to water. The 15-S-3 is oil soluble and I don't know why but it is recommended by the Canadian Conservation Institute mixed with the 15-S-9. The Care and Handling of Recorded Sound Materials
Triton X-100 is similarly clear and it is another recommended surfactant. I use the 15-S-7 and if an additional cleaner is needed, I use the Triton. None of this is with and US machine BTW.
Personally, I would stay away from the photo wetting agents. I used to develop a lot of film and found those agents left streaks like soap scum. A spray with distilled water and then hung in a garment bag was the ticket for me to get streak-free and dustless negatives beautiful to print with. Additionally the industrial surfactants I mentioned are WAY cheaper than photoflo or the Ilford stuff.
Triton X-100 is similarly clear and it is another recommended surfactant. I use the 15-S-7 and if an additional cleaner is needed, I use the Triton. None of this is with and US machine BTW.
Personally, I would stay away from the photo wetting agents. I used to develop a lot of film and found those agents left streaks like soap scum. A spray with distilled water and then hung in a garment bag was the ticket for me to get streak-free and dustless negatives beautiful to print with. Additionally the industrial surfactants I mentioned are WAY cheaper than photoflo or the Ilford stuff.
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Elma P60H
Bought Elma P60H and tried to clean few LPs. However, I did not get much cleaning at 80 kHz. 37 kHz seemed quite powerful!
Then I did the foil test for the cleaning verification of Elma P60H. At 37 kHz the foil developed indentations within 1 min and then tears. However, at 80 kHz the foil showed no indentations even after 30 min; the foil remained perfect; water temperature did rise to 50 C even with heater off.
I am sending Elma P60H back; not sure whether my unit is faulty at 80 kHz or 80 kHz is too soft.
So much for the German, will try Chinese unit and report back.
Bought Elma P60H and tried to clean few LPs. However, I did not get much cleaning at 80 kHz. 37 kHz seemed quite powerful!
Then I did the foil test for the cleaning verification of Elma P60H. At 37 kHz the foil developed indentations within 1 min and then tears. However, at 80 kHz the foil showed no indentations even after 30 min; the foil remained perfect; water temperature did rise to 50 C even with heater off.
I am sending Elma P60H back; not sure whether my unit is faulty at 80 kHz or 80 kHz is too soft.
So much for the German, will try Chinese unit and report back.
Hi New,
On what are you basing the statement "did not get much cleaning at 80khz"?
The foil test is completely irrelevant to cleaning LPs. Its only purpose is to show energy field distribution in a tank.
At higher frequencies, ultrasonic cleaners show less agitation in the tank because the cavitation bubbles are smaller, and better dispersed. The fact that you saw the temperature rise in the 80khz bath is an indication of adequate cleaning power. I think you're making a mistake sending the Elma back.
Cheers,
B B
Hi B B.
I'm interested in your opinion as to the merit of adding an ozone generator to the US cleaning regime.
A mate of mine has lent me an ozone generator - he developed it a couple of decades ago, when he was into "how to clean the oil off rig workers' gumboots". Evidently, at the end of each day they would just throw them overboard because they were covered in oil and there was no easy way to clean them.
Steve came up with an ozone generator that pumped ozone into a tank filled with water, which the gumboots were soaking in. Evidently, an hour with ozone completely removed all the oil from the gumboots!
It seems to me that in the US vinyl cleaning situation:
1. ozone in the cleaning solution would attack deposits like nicotine or oil on used records - better than 5% of IPA might.
2. it would also act as a steriliser for the tubing used in your tank/pump/filter circuit - so there would be no need to make sure the items were all dry before packing them away at the end of a session.
Regards,
Andy
Hi Andy,
I have no direct experience with ozone and vinyl, but ozone reacts with lots of things. The chemical compatibility charts mention the chance for making vinyl brittle, or for discoloration.
It's not something I personally would try.
Link: Ozone Chem Compatibility Chart
Cheers,
B B
I have no direct experience with ozone and vinyl, but ozone reacts with lots of things. The chemical compatibility charts mention the chance for making vinyl brittle, or for discoloration.
It's not something I personally would try.
Link: Ozone Chem Compatibility Chart
Cheers,
B B
I was not convinced that 80 khz was doing any cleaning. I suspected that from visually looking at LPs that I tired to clean for 10 min at 80 khz. Playing them confirmed that! That actually made me check Elma via foil test.
At 80khz, foil came out as if it has been in a dead machine. Elma made lot of vibrations in water and the temperature did rise to 50 C after 30 min without heater. But so what! For me the ultimate tests were visual inspection and playing the LPs.
Now as I wrote earlier, it could be a bad unit or perhaps 80 khz is not powerful enough. I don't know.