As already been said - google "ELF subwoofer".Greggo said:
Using a loudspeaker box calculator software, its easy to determine what cabinet volume you need to get a desired resonance frequency.
The main tradeoff with ELF woofer systems is its very low efficiency at low frequencies. You will need a lot of power, literally hundreds of watts. I use ICEpower 1000ASP on mine, that can crank out over 1000W into 4 ohm. Its also important to select woofers that can handle this power. Small hifi woofers with their tiny 2" voicecoils is a bad idea. Large PA woofers with 4" or larger voicecoils make sure you dont burn your driver too easily, or get power compression problems.
"True" ELF systems use an analog integrator to compensate for the roll-off below resonance, and create a natural 12 dB roll-off above resonance, which will become the x-over frequency. I dont do that, since I have a PC XO software solution, and do all the compensation there.
I have a great deal of experience with Beyma drivers, since I''m selling these drivers in Norway. 12LX60 is nice, but nowhere close to the newer 12P1000nd. I also think the larger 15" and 18" sounds better in the low bass. 18" I thind sounds more powerful, yet controlled and subtle.
If I were to start over again with my system today, I would probably build it as two towers - one sleek 4-way tower with two 12" Beyma woofers, two 8" Seas, two 5" Seas and the Mundorf AMT. The second tower will be the subwoofer, with five 18" Beyma woofers! YEAH!!
I think every question in this thread could be answered with:
"Read his website"
Really, it's a great site, you should check it out
http://memweb.newsguy.com/~stigerik/
"Read his website"
Really, it's a great site, you should check it out
http://memweb.newsguy.com/~stigerik/
Not a bad idea at all, althoughI do have a preference for speakers with the woofers in the front (of some reason, maybe even a stupid one...)jpetek said:
However, I dont have enough space in my listening room for a speaker with rear-firing woofers. Just 10 cm behind the speakers there are large corner basstraps.... which I dont want to remove, and I simply cant move the speakers any further into the room.
Stig,
Thanks for the answers, and to others for emphasizing the search and link options.... At the risk of making myself sound even more stupid, I had read through the site and recognized most of the posts that came up under a search for "ELF"...
I get the principal but continue to not find much about application pros/cons with different drivers, amps, crossover and eq options. Much of this is my own lmited background here as I have yet to even use a speaker box program of any kind to model a volume/driver/freq relationship, but I will get to it eventually.
Stig mentions in his site that it is not a true ELF system... and from what I gathered looking at Bag End's site, they simply model the resonance frequency of a given driver box combination to pin point the FS and the impedance peak, calculate the natural roll off at some point (I guess the determined crossover point for the sub system) below this new system FS, and then apply the reciprocal bass boost and needed power to achieve so that the summnation is either a flat acoustical power response down to some point, or perhaps a more gradual slope of roll off so that room gain would then bring it back to reasonable levels.
I have not seen much on drivers that have worked well in this case, options to avoid patent infringement for those who would want to sell kits or finished products, and if the new digital EQ/correction/crossover systems would make this an easier task if one where to start with some drivers and some boxes and just play around from scratch.....
So anyways, that is what I was fishing around for and my apologies if a more technically astute mind would have derived such from posts in this forum already. I hope to give one a go some day, and appreciated the Beyma driver references as I did not realize the series Stig is using now includes 15 and 12 inch versions as well. Beyma does look like a very nice alternative to JBL but harder to find places to buy here in the US, though I have not really tried very hard as of yet.
Anyways, Stig, your listening room and system is awesome, as is your involvement in the Griffin Audio... all very heady stuff for us arm chair quarterbacks that are just taking mental notes for now.
Also, noticed you mentioned the B&G Neo3 and that it was used in one of the baby Griffins... I have been looking at this and thinking about a line of four arranged vertically with a pair of Morel MDM-55 flanking each tweeter (for a total of 8 Morel mid domes) since the flange height is the same for both types of drivers (3.5 inches) and the horizontal spacing would also be tight (3.5 plus 2.5 plus 3.5) for the horizontal line of mid dome, tweeter, mid dome.... it would seem to me that this would have very minimal lobing and behave more like a point source than a line array once the listening distance was around 6 feet or longer, and that the distortion and frequency response of such a mid/tweet system could be managed to very attractive levels. I would cross this module at around 7 ro 800 Hertz which would free up woofer or midbass choices considerably. Any additiona thoughts on the Neo3 and/or my idea here? Sorry to drift your thread off topic, but thinking of these ultimate pursuits are quite stimulating and you have certainly comes as close to an ultimate engineering as anyone else on this forum, with maybe four or five other well known posters here taking on such ambitious projects..
Thanks for the answers, and to others for emphasizing the search and link options.... At the risk of making myself sound even more stupid, I had read through the site and recognized most of the posts that came up under a search for "ELF"...
I get the principal but continue to not find much about application pros/cons with different drivers, amps, crossover and eq options. Much of this is my own lmited background here as I have yet to even use a speaker box program of any kind to model a volume/driver/freq relationship, but I will get to it eventually.
Stig mentions in his site that it is not a true ELF system... and from what I gathered looking at Bag End's site, they simply model the resonance frequency of a given driver box combination to pin point the FS and the impedance peak, calculate the natural roll off at some point (I guess the determined crossover point for the sub system) below this new system FS, and then apply the reciprocal bass boost and needed power to achieve so that the summnation is either a flat acoustical power response down to some point, or perhaps a more gradual slope of roll off so that room gain would then bring it back to reasonable levels.
I have not seen much on drivers that have worked well in this case, options to avoid patent infringement for those who would want to sell kits or finished products, and if the new digital EQ/correction/crossover systems would make this an easier task if one where to start with some drivers and some boxes and just play around from scratch.....
So anyways, that is what I was fishing around for and my apologies if a more technically astute mind would have derived such from posts in this forum already. I hope to give one a go some day, and appreciated the Beyma driver references as I did not realize the series Stig is using now includes 15 and 12 inch versions as well. Beyma does look like a very nice alternative to JBL but harder to find places to buy here in the US, though I have not really tried very hard as of yet.
Anyways, Stig, your listening room and system is awesome, as is your involvement in the Griffin Audio... all very heady stuff for us arm chair quarterbacks that are just taking mental notes for now.
Also, noticed you mentioned the B&G Neo3 and that it was used in one of the baby Griffins... I have been looking at this and thinking about a line of four arranged vertically with a pair of Morel MDM-55 flanking each tweeter (for a total of 8 Morel mid domes) since the flange height is the same for both types of drivers (3.5 inches) and the horizontal spacing would also be tight (3.5 plus 2.5 plus 3.5) for the horizontal line of mid dome, tweeter, mid dome.... it would seem to me that this would have very minimal lobing and behave more like a point source than a line array once the listening distance was around 6 feet or longer, and that the distortion and frequency response of such a mid/tweet system could be managed to very attractive levels. I would cross this module at around 7 ro 800 Hertz which would free up woofer or midbass choices considerably. Any additiona thoughts on the Neo3 and/or my idea here? Sorry to drift your thread off topic, but thinking of these ultimate pursuits are quite stimulating and you have certainly comes as close to an ultimate engineering as anyone else on this forum, with maybe four or five other well known posters here taking on such ambitious projects..
I think it is great to see that a fellow Norwegian is doing such great designs. Since I have not lived in Norway the past 28 years, I was not immediately aware that Stig Erik has built quite a name for himself as an acoustics expert and speaker designer.
However, I think that Francis Manzella (FM) Design in New York, USA http://www.fmdesign.com/ and http://www.griffinaudiousa.com/ could have done a (much) better job of giving Stig Erik Tangen and Lars Tofastrud proper credit for their work designing the Griffin Audio speaker line (or whatever part of it they actually have designed). As things are, there is no mention of this fact what-so-ever on their web pages...
Cheers!
Stig Inge
Tokyo, Japan
However, I think that Francis Manzella (FM) Design in New York, USA http://www.fmdesign.com/ and http://www.griffinaudiousa.com/ could have done a (much) better job of giving Stig Erik Tangen and Lars Tofastrud proper credit for their work designing the Griffin Audio speaker line (or whatever part of it they actually have designed). As things are, there is no mention of this fact what-so-ever on their web pages...
Cheers!
Stig Inge
Tokyo, Japan
and for yet another follow up.... I don't recall seing what box/driver FS Stig designed to, then crossing at 100hz and then later lowering that crossover point to 70 hz. Are both points below the system FS? Is it possible that by getting further away from the impedance/distortion peak that is associated with FS was the primary reason for the improvements heard with the 70Hz crossover point rather than the muscial abilities of the driver taken on a stand alone basis? Just curious. Again, I don't see much posted on the net regarding: I used this driver, for this reason, tuned driver and box to this FS, then chose this crossover point well below aforementioned FS, and for this reason, applied this type of correction, to get this type of in room response.... (yes, yes, I know... I will just need to do this myself if I am serious about the answers, or at least an example or two, but it never hurts to ask, right? And when I do, I will post results on this forum)
OK, I promise not to pester the group at large with any more of my newbie questions on this topic. Though I welcome opinions and insight as that is why I am here. Thanks for sharing.
OK, I promise not to pester the group at large with any more of my newbie questions on this topic. Though I welcome opinions and insight as that is why I am here. Thanks for sharing.
StigErik said:
Hi StigErik,
I got an amp based on 125ASX2 moduls and I am using as stereo. Very musical and involving are the strength of these modules. I don't listen to high volume usually moderate to low levels however I look for dynamics.
Now I am thinking of getting amps based on1000ASP modules. Since you have mentions ASX2 sounds better that ASP, I am not sure about buying ASP based amp. Since you have 1000ASP and 125ASX2 can you give your inside about their strengths and weaknesses
Thank you
StigErik>>
Have you tried the ASX2 icepower against Hypex 180 e.g.? Or any of you other guys for that matter?
Have heard the hypex 180 and its really really good!
B & O who makes the ice power is normally known, here in denmark where i'm from, for its lousy 80ies design, and awfull sound - but perhaps these are diffrent?!?
Have you tried the ASX2 icepower against Hypex 180 e.g.? Or any of you other guys for that matter?
Have heard the hypex 180 and its really really good!
B & O who makes the ice power is normally known, here in denmark where i'm from, for its lousy 80ies design, and awfull sound - but perhaps these are diffrent?!?
Awesome.
I came across these from GR Research http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=121
These look like exceptional value along the same theme as Stig's, but on a smaller scale.
The passive crossovers are probably a bonus to most.
Does anyone have any experience of these?
I came across these from GR Research http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=121
These look like exceptional value along the same theme as Stig's, but on a smaller scale.
The passive crossovers are probably a bonus to most.
Does anyone have any experience of these?
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Have your tried the Beyma TPL-150s?
Hi StigErik,
Great looking speakers!
Since you like AMTs and sell Beyma drivers I can't help asking whether you have tried the fairly new Beyma TPL-150(H) drivers (see link)?
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/TPL150E.pdf
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
Hi StigErik,
Great looking speakers!
Since you like AMTs and sell Beyma drivers I can't help asking whether you have tried the fairly new Beyma TPL-150(H) drivers (see link)?
http://profesional.beyma.com/pdf/TPL150E.pdf
Thanks!
Best regards
Peter
dublin78 said:
I've heard these on three occasions. Terrific sound: open, spacious, involving, plenty of detail without being "analytical" or "sterile."
Don't have the pinpoint imaging of the best point sources, but do have strong imaging similar to older big Genesis dipole ribbons.
Don't have the precise details of the Accuton/ceramic competitors, but do have lots of detail and nice warmth.
Great bang for the buck.
In addition, the so-called baffle-step is more pronounced on the Excel 8" driver than with most other drivers. Some 8 to 9 dB EQ compensation is necessary to obtain a flat response here. The 5" Excel is easier, only 4-5 dB is required.
I read this on your site when reviewing it, can you explain why this is? Typically "baffle step" is considered to be a 6dB max phenomenon.
I read this on your site when reviewing it, can you explain why this is? Typically "baffle step" is considered to be a 6dB max phenomenon.
In the kind of this speaker - go to
http://www.griffinaudiousa.com/pdf/Griffin G1 Mastering.pdf
I have also realized some customized loudspeaker projects on demand.
I haven't heard this loudspeaker unfortunately. but I cannot understand, why the SEAS midrange like this about
E0049-08S W16NX001
was selected.
The main disadvantage for me here is the radial reinforced rubber surround (low values of Qms - bad for the low level aera) so as the unwanted resonances in the upper midrange aera through the magnesium cone, even clearly audible in case of a crossover frequency cut-off point from the high pass below 800Hz (acoustical slope: 24 db/oct).
Several years ago I have compare this transducer against a equal-sized versions from PHL 1290 and 2410 - go to
http://www.phlaudio.com/datasheets/17_pdf/1330_1290.pdf
http://www.phlaudio.com/datasheets/20_pdf/2400_2410.pdf
so as against a FANE '8 (genuine datasheet I can't find online) - the predecessor of the Crescendo 8MN:
http://www.fane-acoustics.com/downloads/FANE_NEO_Crescendo_8MN_Specs.pdf
Both transducers are better in all respects by audible perception than the SEAS model with magnesium diaphragm.
The cumulative decay spectrum was by the SEAS clearly better, but only in a small aera. In the upper midrange the results of the cumulative decay spectrum by the other both mentioned drivers are clearly better than by the magnesium cone.
By all the commercial speakers I have heard, which uses such magnesium cones from SEAS, I wasn't really satisfied with the sonic results. The last example was follow speaker:
http://www.grimmaudio.com/pro_loudspeakers_ls1.htm
Why many developers outweigh the benefits of the magnesium cones in this models from SEAS ??
And what advantages this could be in the detail ?
Thank you for comments.
Last edited:
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.