Another thought Jim,
Looking at your pictures it migh be an idea to remove some of the cabinet lining.
Too much damping and the sound loses life and can get screechy and hard.
I can't tell you how much to take out as it depends on your room. So you need to experiment.
I got my wife to help with this as male hands can be a bit big to get through the driver hole and into the cabinet. Try first taking out some of the foam from the vicinity of the sides of the driver.
Leave in the damping at the rear of the cab and work on the sides and front. You'll soon know when you have got it right.
If you can get the speakers about 6 inches from the wall the sound fleshes out noticeably too.
Steve.
Looking at your pictures it migh be an idea to remove some of the cabinet lining.
Too much damping and the sound loses life and can get screechy and hard.
I can't tell you how much to take out as it depends on your room. So you need to experiment.
I got my wife to help with this as male hands can be a bit big to get through the driver hole and into the cabinet. Try first taking out some of the foam from the vicinity of the sides of the driver.
Leave in the damping at the rear of the cab and work on the sides and front. You'll soon know when you have got it right.
If you can get the speakers about 6 inches from the wall the sound fleshes out noticeably too.
Steve.
Chrisb,
The CR-1000 doesn't have the option to go class A. I believe only the CA-1000 amp provided for that. I usually set the tone controls (and filters) on by-pass. I will also try the Metronomes on at least one of my Sansui receivers--probably the 4000. You may have noticed that not only am I a fossil, my equipment is as well! I am convinced that the golden age of receivers was in the '70s. I want nothing to do w/ those gutless wonders that use switching power supplies.
(Sorry if I ofended anyone. Just chalk it up to being old & crotchety.)
CHeers, Jim
The CR-1000 doesn't have the option to go class A. I believe only the CA-1000 amp provided for that. I usually set the tone controls (and filters) on by-pass. I will also try the Metronomes on at least one of my Sansui receivers--probably the 4000. You may have noticed that not only am I a fossil, my equipment is as well! I am convinced that the golden age of receivers was in the '70s. I want nothing to do w/ those gutless wonders that use switching power supplies.
(Sorry if I ofended anyone. Just chalk it up to being old & crotchety.)
CHeers, Jim
Dave,
I'm not into exotic wire. Usually I just use 16 gauge zip cord. I am sure that different kinds of wire (especially those that have capacitance factors) will change the sound, but I prefer not to go there.
Steve,
Thanks for the advice. After I get a couple hundred hrs on the drivers, I'll see if I need to remove some foam lining. At 100 hrs the sound has smoothed out, but the freq. responce is anything BUT flat. I will probably try BSC before I pull stuff out though.
Cheers, Jim
I'm not into exotic wire. Usually I just use 16 gauge zip cord. I am sure that different kinds of wire (especially those that have capacitance factors) will change the sound, but I prefer not to go there.
Steve,
Thanks for the advice. After I get a couple hundred hrs on the drivers, I'll see if I need to remove some foam lining. At 100 hrs the sound has smoothed out, but the freq. responce is anything BUT flat. I will probably try BSC before I pull stuff out though.
Cheers, Jim
Hi Jim,
First up, congrats. on the build. They look good to me.
At the risk of putting words into his mouth, Dave isn't into exotic wire either (nor am I or Steve). A pair of the 24AWG twisted conductors extracted from a run of Cat5 network cable should do nicely for your Metronomes. You can untwist them if you feel so inclined and stick them between a couple of pieces of tape.
This isn't voodoo -what happens is the additional series resistance of the wire lifts the Qe of the driver slightly, and lowers the output impedence of the amplifier. If you don't fancy this, an alternative is to add a small resistor in series with the driver (in the positive lead). About 3ohms should be sufficient. In practical terms, you'll lift the bass response, and smooth out the midrange & treble. Most FR drivers need a degree of correction when used with SS amps. Remember though that the Metronome with the 108ESigma is never going to be a bass-champ. About 80Hz is your limit.
A quick example: an enclosure (not a Metronome, I just had it to hand) with a low-Q driver and a high DF amp, which will not correct its response.
First up, congrats. on the build. They look good to me.
At the risk of putting words into his mouth, Dave isn't into exotic wire either (nor am I or Steve). A pair of the 24AWG twisted conductors extracted from a run of Cat5 network cable should do nicely for your Metronomes. You can untwist them if you feel so inclined and stick them between a couple of pieces of tape.
This isn't voodoo -what happens is the additional series resistance of the wire lifts the Qe of the driver slightly, and lowers the output impedence of the amplifier. If you don't fancy this, an alternative is to add a small resistor in series with the driver (in the positive lead). About 3ohms should be sufficient. In practical terms, you'll lift the bass response, and smooth out the midrange & treble. Most FR drivers need a degree of correction when used with SS amps. Remember though that the Metronome with the 108ESigma is never going to be a bass-champ. About 80Hz is your limit.
A quick example: an enclosure (not a Metronome, I just had it to hand) with a low-Q driver and a high DF amp, which will not correct its response.
Attachments
Thanks Guys! I'll give it a try & let you know.
I'm a bit nervous talking to folks about wire, as there are some very opinionated people who think you can't have a system worth listening to if you didn't spend at least $500 per foot for 'special' wire. And I'm sure that if you spent $10K or more for some JenaLabs cables, you'd be positive that they transported you to nirvana. So I'm obviously never gonna get there!
Cheers, Jim
I'm a bit nervous talking to folks about wire, as there are some very opinionated people who think you can't have a system worth listening to if you didn't spend at least $500 per foot for 'special' wire. And I'm sure that if you spent $10K or more for some JenaLabs cables, you'd be positive that they transported you to nirvana. So I'm obviously never gonna get there!
Cheers, Jim
I know what you mean Jim. There's more drivel and pseudo-science talked about expensive wire than anything else in hifi. 
Luckily, you won't find many people around here into that kind of snake-oil. You can tweak your system with it, but you certainly don't need to spend much.
BTW -if you rub your new Cat5 based cable on the back of a duck you will reduce a tendency for quacking in the midrange.
Luckily, you won't find many people around here into that kind of snake-oil. You can tweak your system with it, but you certainly don't need to spend much. BTW -if you rub your new Cat5 based cable on the back of a duck you will reduce a tendency for quacking in the midrange.
Dave and Scott,
Turns out that Jim lives about 20 minutes from me. I emailed him off-line and we are working towards a listening session so I can hear his Metronomes. I am also hoping to get him over to my place to hear my OB system. It is always nice to get an independent set of ears hearing your system and getting some constructive feedback/discussion.
Turns out that Jim lives about 20 minutes from me. I emailed him off-line and we are working towards a listening session so I can hear his Metronomes. I am also hoping to get him over to my place to hear my OB system. It is always nice to get an independent set of ears hearing your system and getting some constructive feedback/discussion.
Hi Martin, good to hear from you!
That's lucky, with you both living so close. It'll be very interesting to hear the views about both systems & ideas about future tweaks etc.
Speaking of which, I mean to ask you something about dipole woofers, but as it's a bit off-topic, I'll do it via email.
Cheers for now
Scott
That's lucky, with you both living so close. It'll be very interesting to hear the views about both systems & ideas about future tweaks etc.
Speaking of which, I mean to ask you something about dipole woofers, but as it's a bit off-topic, I'll do it via email.
Cheers for now
Scott
I'm back from a long astronomy weekend--The Conjunction at Northfield, MA. Some good observing and many excellent talks!
I have tried the 24 gauge wire (more like thread!) on both my Yamaha CR-1000 and Sansui 4000. The Yamaha has a damping factor of 100, while the Sansui has a DF=50. Can't say that the smaller wire makes any real improvement on either receiver.
Still working toward driver break-in. I'm up to about 180 hrs now. I try not to listen to them too much, as I don't want to judge them prematurely--but they are beginning to sound interesting. Just that issue w/ the freq responce not being close to flat. Martin has offered to help me w/ BSC, which is what I think will be needed. Meanwhile, w/ serious application of tone controls, things are sounding pretty good.
Cheers, Jim
I have tried the 24 gauge wire (more like thread!) on both my Yamaha CR-1000 and Sansui 4000. The Yamaha has a damping factor of 100, while the Sansui has a DF=50. Can't say that the smaller wire makes any real improvement on either receiver.
Still working toward driver break-in. I'm up to about 180 hrs now. I try not to listen to them too much, as I don't want to judge them prematurely--but they are beginning to sound interesting. Just that issue w/ the freq responce not being close to flat. Martin has offered to help me w/ BSC, which is what I think will be needed. Meanwhile, w/ serious application of tone controls, things are sounding pretty good.
Cheers, Jim
(believe it or not, it works well with some designs, especially horns). Not a good idea in this case though.
That's what it's all about -having fun, experimenting & getting the sound to how you like it.
I wasn't kidding about the 30AWG, odd though it sounds (& frightening though it looks) -it was quite a popular thing to try back in the days of the old FR forum, with high efficiency speakers / horns. Not a good idea for ML type designs though.
I wasn't kidding about the 30AWG, odd though it sounds (& frightening though it looks) -it was quite a popular thing to try back in the days of the old FR forum, with high efficiency speakers / horns. Not a good idea for ML type designs though.
Hi Jim
I've noticed on your photo that you have the Metronomes a bit far out from the wall. The BSC will be needed if you intend to keep them in that position.
I have mine about 3 inches from the rear wall and if you look on the frugal horn site you will see that the big Metronomes either side of the TV are also very near to the wall in Lousymusician's room.
The original design brief when I developed the FE108EZ Metronome was to make a quarter wave speaker that would work in a small room up close to a wall or even in a corner that would look good and appeal to the female sense of aesthetics. It therefore has a very steep rolloff below its driver's Fs and relies on the proximity of the walls and floor to provide gain at the bottom
The spec for mine could do with changing on the drawing to remove the instruction to line the cabinet throughout.
Lining was necessary during the very early days of my development of the Metronome enclosure as an attempt tame the peaks and dips in the bass response, as at that time it had an open bottom and no mass loading.
As soon as I applied Scott's suggested mass loading them to them with the 2 inch port. The damping killed the sound stone dead and brought forward the most dreadful harsh and tinny sound. Quite frankly they were bloody awful! Probably the sound you are getting at the moment
Removing most of the damping except for that on the cabinet back had the desired effect and brought back all the lovely midrange I had had before, but I had gotten rid of the peaky bass just as Scott had said the mass loading would achieve.
I reckon that if you can either get them in corners or right back to a wall and take out most of the damping they will become different speakers.
I would love to have a go with my FE108EZ Metronomes in corners as I think they would sound great, but it would involve too much swapping of furniture around. One day I might try it whilst the wife is out if I can get over the inertia.
Perhaps you could try yours in corners and report on their sound. I might then get off my *** and try it myself.
Steve.
I've noticed on your photo that you have the Metronomes a bit far out from the wall. The BSC will be needed if you intend to keep them in that position.
I have mine about 3 inches from the rear wall and if you look on the frugal horn site you will see that the big Metronomes either side of the TV are also very near to the wall in Lousymusician's room.
The original design brief when I developed the FE108EZ Metronome was to make a quarter wave speaker that would work in a small room up close to a wall or even in a corner that would look good and appeal to the female sense of aesthetics. It therefore has a very steep rolloff below its driver's Fs and relies on the proximity of the walls and floor to provide gain at the bottom
The spec for mine could do with changing on the drawing to remove the instruction to line the cabinet throughout.
Lining was necessary during the very early days of my development of the Metronome enclosure as an attempt tame the peaks and dips in the bass response, as at that time it had an open bottom and no mass loading.
As soon as I applied Scott's suggested mass loading them to them with the 2 inch port. The damping killed the sound stone dead and brought forward the most dreadful harsh and tinny sound. Quite frankly they were bloody awful! Probably the sound you are getting at the moment
Removing most of the damping except for that on the cabinet back had the desired effect and brought back all the lovely midrange I had had before, but I had gotten rid of the peaky bass just as Scott had said the mass loading would achieve.
I reckon that if you can either get them in corners or right back to a wall and take out most of the damping they will become different speakers.
I would love to have a go with my FE108EZ Metronomes in corners as I think they would sound great, but it would involve too much swapping of furniture around. One day I might try it whilst the wife is out if I can get over the inertia.
Perhaps you could try yours in corners and report on their sound. I might then get off my *** and try it myself.
Steve.
Steve,
This must be the time to re-arrange the living room! Marian & I have been planning to move things around anyway. I will get the Metronomes to the wall & report back (perhaps as soon as tomorrow.)
I am holding off on pulling the lining out until all other possibilities have been explored. Once I pull the lining out (and it won't be easy!) I won't be able to get it back in.
Cheers, Jim
This must be the time to re-arrange the living room! Marian & I have been planning to move things around anyway. I will get the Metronomes to the wall & report back (perhaps as soon as tomorrow.)
I am holding off on pulling the lining out until all other possibilities have been explored. Once I pull the lining out (and it won't be easy!) I won't be able to get it back in.
Cheers, Jim
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