Re: Wilsons
I have the FR for a Maxx II... and it has a nice lovely 10db spike at around 50-120hz... for that "nice bass"
lol
all of wilson's speakers I've heard have been bass heavy... except the sophia which was on purpose
they did that to sell the higher lines because of the "dramatic difference" because one has flat bass... one has a 10db spike
audiophiles are just like bose fans... "big bass is crazy crazy and a sign of SQ"
for instance my bass/midbass section right now is 100db/w/m efficent... and to reproduce that "Wilson sound" I need to level a pair of 15's per side and give them around 5 watts a side... or around 106db vs. the 98db on the top speakers... and this is with 2 15's a side...
however when they are leveled flat... I can go up to obsene levels without noticiing it... because the sound doesn't strain your ears at ALL...
105db for the whole system everything leveled even and those 35-200hz notes ring through your chest...
quiet breathtaking to experience with a guitar transient
I love active too cause I can change the ENTIRE characteristic of these speakers with the touch of a button...
Kevinbd said:
I have the FR for a Maxx II... and it has a nice lovely 10db spike at around 50-120hz... for that "nice bass"
lol
all of wilson's speakers I've heard have been bass heavy... except the sophia which was on purpose
they did that to sell the higher lines because of the "dramatic difference" because one has flat bass... one has a 10db spike
audiophiles are just like bose fans... "big bass is crazy crazy and a sign of SQ"
for instance my bass/midbass section right now is 100db/w/m efficent... and to reproduce that "Wilson sound" I need to level a pair of 15's per side and give them around 5 watts a side... or around 106db vs. the 98db on the top speakers... and this is with 2 15's a side...
however when they are leveled flat... I can go up to obsene levels without noticiing it... because the sound doesn't strain your ears at ALL...
105db for the whole system everything leveled even and those 35-200hz notes ring through your chest...
quiet breathtaking to experience with a guitar transient
I love active too cause I can change the ENTIRE characteristic of these speakers with the touch of a button...
Audiophilenoob said:
just the Maxx II's and the Avalon Eidilion Diamond...
Maxx II was pretty nice... something about the top end just didn't seem right (this was after hearing my first ribbon tweeter so take that as you will)
Eidilions reminded me of the BW 800... lifeless, dull, ringy speakers that left me glad I don't have more money than sense
$40,000 nice??? no
Wish I'd got some really decent hifi shops close by but all the big and presigious ones are in the London area which is an 8 hour round trip plus demo time, so that's a day just to get a listen with no intention to buy.
The best I've heard and incidentally the most expensive at £12k or ~$20US was ATC's SCM-50 30th Anniversary. Superb speakers and I liked them so much I bought the same mid and bass driver but swapped for a better treble unit and completely changed the enclosures for better sound. Definitely not a clone but two designs that happen to share a couple of the same drivers, everything else is different.
Its hard to remember exactly what they sound like because it was a good few months ago since demoing but I remember being very impressed which doesn't happen often. However I'm certain that my DIY take on things sounds even better, it could be just my ego to the casual onlooker but its something I genuinly believe. Of course I'd really like to get a pair in the same room as my Percieve design to check the differences.
Not much chance of that though because they're only building 50 pairs.
Audiophilenoob said:
no ATC around here unfortunately
I had to travel all the way to Gloucestershire to hear them. The studio stuff and smaller home models can be heard in a few high-end dealers up and down the country but 30th Anniversary is rare.
I actually had a faulty ATC mid that was making a scratchy sound, reported this to ATC and they sent out a new matched pair and took my pair with the faulty one back as the new ones were delivered. I got a big appology letter and an invite to the factory.
Went shortly after that and got the chance to hear the 30th Anniversaries. I was pretty amazed to also see the factory floor. Everything from winding the VC's to constructing the amps to assembling the drivers was done by hand! It allows them greater control over the quality and tolerences I was told and fully believe it. In someways it all seemed a little old fashioned in light of the big mass production plants that produce SS, Seas, PHL etc. But its even easier to see why they make some awesome drivers with the effort and attention they lavish.
Don't think you'll find many ATC dealers at all in the US because the only folks that use them over there are places like Warner Bros, Walt Disney etc. Pretty much unknown to the average audio enthusiast and for the rest they're too expensive after shipping, exchange rates and taxes.
Re: Re: Classé
Yes, that's it.
From what I've heard myself and the tests I made, even the top of the range monoblocks can't drive the B&W 800s.
They sound really bad, but fine with easier to drive speakers.
Hard to accept for such mon$ter amplification.
...or bad amps.
Yep, those Classé sound fine with some speakers, not so with the B&Ws.
Better test these level of $peakers with good, reliable amps, like a pair of Halcros (and a good source), and that's it.
Yes, the 800s can sound really good, but it costs money.
They reveal all the trash very easily.
cowanrg said:
Yes, that's it.
cowanrg said:
From what I've heard myself and the tests I made, even the top of the range monoblocks can't drive the B&W 800s.
They sound really bad, but fine with easier to drive speakers.
Hard to accept for such mon$ter amplification.
cowanrg said:
...or bad amps.
Yep, those Classé sound fine with some speakers, not so with the B&Ws.
Better test these level of $peakers with good, reliable amps, like a pair of Halcros (and a good source), and that's it.
Yes, the 800s can sound really good, but it costs money.
They reveal all the trash very easily.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Classé
With a Linn CD12?
With a decent room?
With a guy that spends hours setting up the system and positioning the speakers?
We didn't listen to the same system, that's for sure.
Btw, if you like heavy, unnatural (IMO) bass, as you seem to like, these are not speakers for you.
They are correct, tight, fast, balanced, detailed.
Oh, those tweeters need a lot of time to start sounding as they do.
And no, you can't change everything at a touch of a switch.
EDIT: It's hard to figure out how they sounded the same for you with Classé amps and with Halcros.
Audiophilenoob said:I've heard the 800's on halcro's and they sounded the same as every other time I heard it
not impressive
With a Linn CD12?
With a decent room?
With a guy that spends hours setting up the system and positioning the speakers?
We didn't listen to the same system, that's for sure.
Btw, if you like heavy, unnatural (IMO) bass, as you seem to like, these are not speakers for you.
They are correct, tight, fast, balanced, detailed.
Oh, those tweeters need a lot of time to start sounding as they do.
And no, you can't change everything at a touch of a switch.
EDIT: It's hard to figure out how they sounded the same for you with Classé amps and with Halcros.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Classé
GREAT room
yes this guy set them up for hrs and hrs and hrs and hrs... 2 different locations even... but only the halcro's at 1
the source matters about as much as the wires IMO... about jack squat as long as it's made right... but it was on a really expensive unit w/e it was
as I seem to like?
I POINTED out that I DO NOT like heavy bass... I just pointed out that's what wilson audio is all about...
what I said before was that my system as it is now... flat... is what I prefer... but to the bose lovers and ... well all store bought buyers bass = SQ... dynamic SPL while maintaning awesome low distortion is what I have now... my 15's are leveled flat... it just so happens reference efficency here is 100db/w to match with the ribbon and midranges
and no... detail is not what I would describe BW as
I would describe it as imprecise, noisy, harsh top end, undynamic...
and yes... I can change the entire way a speaker sounds at the touch of a knob and some buttons... I can even add even order distortion etc etc... however I don't... I guess I can't ever make my ribbons sound like diamond tweeters... but for that I'm GLAD!!!
Edit: I've never heard them with Classe
carlosfm said:
GREAT room
yes this guy set them up for hrs and hrs and hrs and hrs... 2 different locations even... but only the halcro's at 1
the source matters about as much as the wires IMO... about jack squat as long as it's made right... but it was on a really expensive unit w/e it was
as I seem to like?
I POINTED out that I DO NOT like heavy bass... I just pointed out that's what wilson audio is all about...
what I said before was that my system as it is now... flat... is what I prefer... but to the bose lovers and ... well all store bought buyers bass = SQ... dynamic SPL while maintaning awesome low distortion is what I have now... my 15's are leveled flat... it just so happens reference efficency here is 100db/w to match with the ribbon and midranges
and no... detail is not what I would describe BW as
I would describe it as imprecise, noisy, harsh top end, undynamic...
and yes... I can change the entire way a speaker sounds at the touch of a knob and some buttons... I can even add even order distortion etc etc... however I don't... I guess I can't ever make my ribbons sound like diamond tweeters... but for that I'm GLAD!!!
Edit: I've never heard them with Classe
carlosfm said:
Several months old doesn't mean anything, if they were not put to play continuously for a long time.
No, it's not
Do you really think that the drive units sound good when brand new?!!!
It's all said, then.
Good night.
yes they do... I've seen graphs showing that things like distortion etc hardly change... nothing audibly ... all that usually changes is a bit looser on the suspension... even then audiblity is HIGHLY suspect
oh the general "method" to this shop is full burn in for 2 days of all new equipment... they won't even play it for you then
I know... I wanted to hear a pair of a lower line magnepan but it was "burning in"
Audiophilenoob said:
Are they a decent outfit? Its just that I've heard one the nautilus range and had different thoughts.
I've only heard the N803 D at Moorgate Acoustics, which is a couple of miles from me and that was about the most expensive speaker they had in at the time.
I liked the sound, its not really up in ya face but quite subdued and natural I thought. There was nothing that your describing more that it was just very easy to listen to yet the details were still there. I was listening at the sort of levels that make the music seem realistic in scale. Listening at too loud a setting just makes things become unatural in scale. Nothing absolutely stellar but a decent pair of speakers, the price was a bit much but us DIY'ers always say that about commercial stuff.
Partnering amplification were some large Musical Fidelity monoblocks and a Wadia CD player.
Audiophilenoob said:
yes they do... I've seen graphs showing that things like distortion etc hardly change... nothing audibly ... all that usually changes is a bit looser on the suspension... even then audiblity is HIGHLY suspect
oh the general "method" to this shop is full burn in for 2 days of all new equipment... they won't even play it for you then
I know... I wanted to hear a pair of a lower line magnepan but it was "burning in"
I'm not disagreeing for arguments sake but I've genuinely heard differences between run-in and fresh drivers.
The biggest differences are those in the bass for sure, the mid and treble maybe but its so subtle that you wouldn't notice it over the period of time it takes.
Burn in is measurable too, I've had all my drivers on SW and the bass and midrange driver T/S specs all were out compared to manufacturer specs during running in they creep towards the indicated value and in the end they were virtually the same after this period. The only one that was over 20% compared to manufacturer specs was VAS but I suspect its because I used the added mass method to calculate rather than a sealed box. Later on I rerun the measurements in the final cabinet and VAS was actually within 8% of the manufacturer value, so the added mass method was a fair bit out.
I agree that electronics and cable burn-in is pretty far fetched and miniscule at best.
ShinOBIWAN said:
yes... they won many awards and were named the 5th best audio store in the USA
I've never seen a shop like this.... they had easily a few hundred thousand feet of prime, preped listening rooms... there was easily several million in just 2 channel speakers there... another million or 2 in amps... a full 30 person theater...
they actually had the funds to put $31,000 transparency cables on the Watt puppy's... I laughed histerically
ShinOBIWAN said:
tight suspension drivers are a different story... but yea
I have heard a difference... I think most of that is MY ears though
either way these speakers were THOROUGHLY burnt in I'm sure... not to mention how much they probably had been listened to...
like I said this dealer believes in it whole heartedly and always did 2 days of burn in before they even let people hear... I tried like I said to hear one "burning in"
I know that T/S change after some usage... but almost all the changes can be attributed to that looser suspension... it's really not that hard to see why... Fs lowers etc etc etc
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Classé
don't worry I've heard it all...
however every time someone FINALLY submitts to a Blind ABX test they always fail
a well built op amp source will sound identical to the most expensive Linn products
ask spacemonkey over at CAF about ALL the DBABX's he's done... he also happens to be one of the biggest skeptics on audibility between the cheap and expensive... especially in the electronics side
AudioFreak said:
don't worry I've heard it all...
however every time someone FINALLY submitts to a Blind ABX test they always fail
a well built op amp source will sound identical to the most expensive Linn products
ask spacemonkey over at CAF about ALL the DBABX's he's done... he also happens to be one of the biggest skeptics on audibility between the cheap and expensive... especially in the electronics side
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