Sorry missed the earlier post, but if the service area is already full, how would you implement a manifold all the way across it? Anyhoo, I'd suggest an "innie" manifold on the wall inside the HT space, and exiting ito the service area, so it doesn't take any physical space in this area. There are examples in the COTIB links above.planet10 said:
There is another option, but it depends on the design of the HT room itself. If there is going to be more than one row of seats in the HT, then the seats in the back (and middle) rows will have to be raised.
"On what?" - you may ask...
"On the subwoofer enclosure" - I reply...
OK, that's one option.
There's another if the service area is out. The exercise area (again, I'm not sure of the design) is a possibility. In stead of a 20" cube, as Brett said, you could have a 20" 'tunnel', mounted at ceiling level and against the wall near the 'e' in 'excercises', with drivers mounted on 2 sides of this tunnel - venting into the excercise area. As long as you mount the drivers with the magnet inside, could could make this look pretty innocuous, and it has the added advantiage of being able to be used as your excercise subwoofer as well (if it's connected up OK).
JinMTVT, remember that all reproduction systems are a compromise. You just have to work out where your 'line in the sand' is going to be.
I'll see if I can dream up any other ideas for where this could be hidden...
"On what?" - you may ask...
"On the subwoofer enclosure" - I reply...
OK, that's one option.
There's another if the service area is out. The exercise area (again, I'm not sure of the design) is a possibility. In stead of a 20" cube, as Brett said, you could have a 20" 'tunnel', mounted at ceiling level and against the wall near the 'e' in 'excercises', with drivers mounted on 2 sides of this tunnel - venting into the excercise area. As long as you mount the drivers with the magnet inside, could could make this look pretty innocuous, and it has the added advantiage of being able to be used as your excercise subwoofer as well (if it's connected up OK).
JinMTVT, remember that all reproduction systems are a compromise. You just have to work out where your 'line in the sand' is going to be.
I'll see if I can dream up any other ideas for where this could be hidden...
thanks all for your quick input!!!
As we have already discussed in another thread,
my HT room isnt' going to end up all straight and square.... i intend to use some funky shape to minimize room modes and reflections ..
the shape presented here is only done for the house buidling ..i haven't thought about the exact shape of the rooom yet
so i have no problem using a few feet at the front for making the subwoofer enclosure, that is why i said earlier that i roughly would have from 5 to 10 cubic meters available for each side
Then, the house will not be really IN the ground
we have high lever of water ( island ) and i can't dig much more than 1 foot total to put the footin
so the garage will be really raised from the groun by 3 foot approximatly
and the rest will lay diretly on the footing wich will all be only 1 foot in the ground
now since we get -40c in winter around here,
every footing needs to be at least 5 feet deep,
so i will need to "fill" the surrouding of the house with sand and earth to make somewhat of a hill going up to the house walls
( will probably end up raising all around the house of 3' high, and 10-15 feet allround going down to 0 ground )
problem here is that i have 75years old trees at 15-20 feet ALL around my house that i do not want to kill,
so i can't add any ground futher than that...neway it is a very complicated and delicate project that will cost alot of time and money, but i am sure it will be very worth it at the end
back to AUDIO now
what i thought then, would be adding another wall in fron the service area about 1 feet further, making osmething like a 10 feet long 1 foot wide by 9' high room
that coul walks its way around the service room to the garage ..and then vent in the garage with some funky 90degree bent and some grills
before i continue working on the plan,
do you guys really think that venting to the garage would be a good idea? if it will work as intended, then i'll work on it to get it working
either use the floor or walls as was pointed ..
making an outside structure to be burried is pretty much out of the question ..would be a very long one
what is the main difference of absorbing the rear waves "a la TL " but with no rear port
and complete IB ??
As we have already discussed in another thread,
my HT room isnt' going to end up all straight and square.... i intend to use some funky shape to minimize room modes and reflections ..
the shape presented here is only done for the house buidling ..i haven't thought about the exact shape of the rooom yet
so i have no problem using a few feet at the front for making the subwoofer enclosure, that is why i said earlier that i roughly would have from 5 to 10 cubic meters available for each side
Then, the house will not be really IN the ground
we have high lever of water ( island ) and i can't dig much more than 1 foot total to put the footin
so the garage will be really raised from the groun by 3 foot approximatly
and the rest will lay diretly on the footing wich will all be only 1 foot in the ground
now since we get -40c in winter around here,
every footing needs to be at least 5 feet deep,
so i will need to "fill" the surrouding of the house with sand and earth to make somewhat of a hill going up to the house walls
( will probably end up raising all around the house of 3' high, and 10-15 feet allround going down to 0 ground )
problem here is that i have 75years old trees at 15-20 feet ALL around my house that i do not want to kill,
so i can't add any ground futher than that...neway it is a very complicated and delicate project that will cost alot of time and money, but i am sure it will be very worth it at the end
back to AUDIO now
what i thought then, would be adding another wall in fron the service area about 1 feet further, making osmething like a 10 feet long 1 foot wide by 9' high room
that coul walks its way around the service room to the garage ..and then vent in the garage with some funky 90degree bent and some grills
before i continue working on the plan,
do you guys really think that venting to the garage would be a good idea? if it will work as intended, then i'll work on it to get it working
either use the floor or walls as was pointed ..
making an outside structure to be burried is pretty much out of the question ..would be a very long one
what is the main difference of absorbing the rear waves "a la TL " but with no rear port
and complete IB ??
When the rear of the driver is operating into a large volume wrt it's VAS, then it's effectively an IB. So select some suitable drivers, design a manifold that fits physically and aesthetically with the HT room and the service area behind it, and you're set. There are plenty of existing designs and driver specs on the COTIB site for inspiration and guidance.JinMTVT said:of course i've seen the site!
a few times now! it is very interesting
so are you saying that if one is to absorb completly the rear wave in a manner that it is not restrictive to the rear impedance of the driver, it does exactly the same as an IB ?
As an example, when I get back to my home (I live in another city atm for work reasons) I'll have a pair of manifolds in my HT/music room with 8 15" drivers in each. I could fit them in the loft, and it has enough volume, but it's too hard to get into and work in. Like this, but stacked 2 high.
http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/JonFoulksIB.jpg
Quick layout of what i could do with walls...
would loose 1 foot of space in the service room
i'd have a 1foot wide 9' tall 10' long exhaust
that would output on a 4-5' tall by 1' wide port in the garage ..
would that cause any problems?
i can make that in ICF also ( concrete + foam )
so i have no problems with vibration or wall loading
i'll work on a quick sketch on how it could pass under the floor also i think ...brb
would loose 1 foot of space in the service room
i'd have a 1foot wide 9' tall 10' long exhaust
that would output on a 4-5' tall by 1' wide port in the garage ..
would that cause any problems?
i can make that in ICF also ( concrete + foam )
so i have no problems with vibration or wall loading
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
i'll work on a quick sketch on how it could pass under the floor also i think ...brb
i want to understand something please ...
What is the difference for SUB-BASS to put the drivers in a recessed "manifold" like we have seen alot around
( drivers in the attic with an opening in the music room is an example )
VS having all the drivers right in our face on a flat baffle wich is the front wall or something like that,
with the rear in IB
is there any difference in sound ? timing? quality?...
i am not too aware of how sub-bass wave behave
Please keep in mind that i am trying to achieve my ULTIMATE HT setup ( will also be used for multi channel music later on .. ) so it needs to be as perfect as i can within the limitation of this room/house setup
What is the difference for SUB-BASS to put the drivers in a recessed "manifold" like we have seen alot around
( drivers in the attic with an opening in the music room is an example )
VS having all the drivers right in our face on a flat baffle wich is the front wall or something like that,
with the rear in IB
is there any difference in sound ? timing? quality?...
i am not too aware of how sub-bass wave behave
Please keep in mind that i am trying to achieve my ULTIMATE HT setup ( will also be used for multi channel music later on .. ) so it needs to be as perfect as i can within the limitation of this room/house setup
just again the same setup showing one option for front fascia ( i didn't do room work for the sides and back though .. )
this setup is for 8 18" on each side
total of 16 18"
this setup is for 8 18" on each side
total of 16 18"
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
That'd work, I suppose, but maybe with some TL effect because of the long passage. You coild fill it with fibreglass to dampen that though.
Another suggestion is to turn the HT 90 degrees and face the wall to the service area? You'll still have enough depth in the room for the HT, and the sidewalls will be further away so lateral reflections won't smear the sound as much and may not require much treatment. Then you could just vent the subs directly into the service area and you don't waste the end of the room behind the false wall. This'd be how I'd do it were it my house, and I'd make shelves on the two short end wills and fill them with books, LPs, CD's and DVD's which make nice diffusers. I'd also set up a comfy chair at one end with a reading light.
Andrew T also suggested just having a mono sub in the side wall (as per your original layout) and vent into the service area. Crossed low, directionality is tough to pick with a sub, but it may be localiseable at the 80Hz std HT xover, so may require an outboard xover to go with the extra amp you'll definitely need for the subs. Get a big secondhand Pro poweramp for this. They're quite cheap secondhand, especially older non SMPS or Class D amp types, and place it in the sevice area, so fan noise won't be a concern.
Another suggestion is to turn the HT 90 degrees and face the wall to the service area? You'll still have enough depth in the room for the HT, and the sidewalls will be further away so lateral reflections won't smear the sound as much and may not require much treatment. Then you could just vent the subs directly into the service area and you don't waste the end of the room behind the false wall. This'd be how I'd do it were it my house, and I'd make shelves on the two short end wills and fill them with books, LPs, CD's and DVD's which make nice diffusers. I'd also set up a comfy chair at one end with a reading light.
Andrew T also suggested just having a mono sub in the side wall (as per your original layout) and vent into the service area. Crossed low, directionality is tough to pick with a sub, but it may be localiseable at the 80Hz std HT xover, so may require an outboard xover to go with the extra amp you'll definitely need for the subs. Get a big secondhand Pro poweramp for this. They're quite cheap secondhand, especially older non SMPS or Class D amp types, and place it in the sevice area, so fan noise won't be a concern.
i have no choice for the placement of the door,
and i wanted people that would be leaving to do it from behind, not on side or front as i find it distractive for others .. i'll have to consider moving it around to see how it works out
So installing the sub drivers remote wil be a too big compromise, and i do not believe that i could fit as many drivers as i want doing that ...
i can't really use the service room, as the air system will probably end up there also, and i do not want bass to propagate in the air system tubbings from there
have to think about all that still
lots of stuff to plan on a complete house,
and i am very picky about what i want/need
so everything has to work correclty together
and i wanted people that would be leaving to do it from behind, not on side or front as i find it distractive for others .. i'll have to consider moving it around to see how it works out
So installing the sub drivers remote wil be a too big compromise, and i do not believe that i could fit as many drivers as i want doing that ...
i can't really use the service room, as the air system will probably end up there also, and i do not want bass to propagate in the air system tubbings from there
have to think about all that still
lots of stuff to plan on a complete house,
and i am very picky about what i want/need
so everything has to work correclty together
Played a bit with the rooms and the space i had...
turned the HT around as suggested ..moved the service to remote area ..changed HT room shape
is this shape any good?
keep in mind that my HT design will be all NEAR FIELD Line arrays...all around
With this design, i coul use the service and the garage easily for IB-subs venting
or i could only use the garage for both sides
is the service room big enough for the effect?
could use some stuffing on the ceiling to help out and some absorbant at the end of the room near its door
turned the HT around as suggested ..moved the service to remote area ..changed HT room shape
is this shape any good?
keep in mind that my HT design will be all NEAR FIELD Line arrays...all around
With this design, i coul use the service and the garage easily for IB-subs venting
or i could only use the garage for both sides
is the service room big enough for the effect?
could use some stuffing on the ceiling to help out and some absorbant at the end of the room near its door
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I like it, but it's your house and you need to be content.
There is plenty of area there to vent the IB's and you could cover the back of them eg the wall near the stairs with some sort of perforated panel if the aesthetics bother you. I'd still mount the drivers opposed in pairs push-push into a small manifold ( >|_|< ) so that they don't transmit much vibration into the structure. The > and < represent the drivers and the direction they push into the |_| shaped manifold. With 8x18 per side mounted like this the opening of the manifold wouldn't need to be more than 300-400mm (12-16") wide in practice, extending floor to ceiling. Can be in the room, or behind it.
I think the not-rectangular shape of the room could be beneficial, but I'm hardly an acoustician.
I don't think you'll need the garage to be open as all the other areas open to the pressure will be enough.
In the space adjacent the HT room to the right, install a popcorn machine.
There is plenty of area there to vent the IB's and you could cover the back of them eg the wall near the stairs with some sort of perforated panel if the aesthetics bother you. I'd still mount the drivers opposed in pairs push-push into a small manifold ( >|_|< ) so that they don't transmit much vibration into the structure. The > and < represent the drivers and the direction they push into the |_| shaped manifold. With 8x18 per side mounted like this the opening of the manifold wouldn't need to be more than 300-400mm (12-16") wide in practice, extending floor to ceiling. Can be in the room, or behind it.
I think the not-rectangular shape of the room could be beneficial, but I'm hardly an acoustician.
I don't think you'll need the garage to be open as all the other areas open to the pressure will be enough.
In the space adjacent the HT room to the right, install a popcorn machine.
JinMTVT said:
Just looking at this model, and you'd have (assuming the 'space' is 3 feet deep) about 660 cubic feet (or more than 18 thousand litres) of space in your 'enclosure'. Depending on the number of drivers you are looking at, that is probably plenty of space. If you've got 8, then that's over 2000 litres of enclosure for each, if you plan on 16, then that's over 1000. Either way, you'd still have a Q well under .5 which is at least on the way to IB.
Post some Qts/Vas/Fs figures for the drivers you're looking at (or did you already do that?). You don't have to make that big a sacrifice (looking at the last picture you posted) to get a big sound.
I'll try to play with enclosure volume to see how it behaves from 1X to near unlimited later on..
is HornResp good enough to do it ?
i haven't planned exactly the subs i will be using for this..been playing lately with Horns to see how it could "fit" what i wanted without success...too many compromises ..so i'll stick with alot of drivers and IB
( this is what i decided ..and it should be final )
What do you guys think of the last picture i put up with the 90deg turned room ?
i thought about using the space under the stairs as enclosure and vent ( more like manifold ) up to the garage.. i will have to see if the space is adequate VS what kind of results i get using a SIM and different enclosure sizes ...
The drivers i would like will need alot of excursion and low FS for sure...anything else just gives too much compromises in the range i want to use them for
6174 are still the drivers i prefer..i could have a local company copy its specs for a lower costs
( i can't afford 12-16 McCauley units..that would leave a lot less $$$ for other parts of the system ..)
i'll have to work on the room size and shape also now!
is HornResp good enough to do it ?
i haven't planned exactly the subs i will be using for this..been playing lately with Horns to see how it could "fit" what i wanted without success...too many compromises ..so i'll stick with alot of drivers and IB
( this is what i decided ..and it should be final )
What do you guys think of the last picture i put up with the 90deg turned room ?
i thought about using the space under the stairs as enclosure and vent ( more like manifold ) up to the garage.. i will have to see if the space is adequate VS what kind of results i get using a SIM and different enclosure sizes ...
The drivers i would like will need alot of excursion and low FS for sure...anything else just gives too much compromises in the range i want to use them for
6174 are still the drivers i prefer..i could have a local company copy its specs for a lower costs
( i can't afford 12-16 McCauley units..that would leave a lot less $$$ for other parts of the system ..)
i'll have to work on the room size and shape also now!
i would like to know what will be the differences between direct wall mounted radiating IB setup like this one here :
VS a manifold mounted IB setup like this one :
What i speak of , is performance and sound...not pressure related
is there any disadvantage of a properly implemented manifold ?
cause if there is no difference in the perceived sound,
i'd consider doing a push push line up arrangement with side opening on the HT room and back of drivers toward the garage ports ...
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
VS a manifold mounted IB setup like this one :
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
What i speak of , is performance and sound...not pressure related
is there any disadvantage of a properly implemented manifold ?
cause if there is no difference in the perceived sound,
i'd consider doing a push push line up arrangement with side opening on the HT room and back of drivers toward the garage ports ...
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