Well I've made some (not enough) experimentation and the problem seems to be around 5000-8000Hz, I don't know exactly yet but that's where the missing part is, that's what makes the sound closed; anything that sounds like a "his", the airy sound is missing, 3-6 dB in strength.
On the other hand the bass goes down to 37hz, clearly present but with too much excursion, that's for a small 13Liter tapered transmission line, tuned to about 53hz. That's a 37 hz tone sounding as strong as a 70Hz tone with a driver that suppose to resonate at 60, but probably resonates slightly higher. It manages to reproduce a thunder sound quite right even the really low components, no problem with earthquake or avalanche sounds ... very good bass reproduction.
Can anybody name a fullrange driver of about the same size (Sd=65-90cm2, 5 inch driver)) that is known to have a sound that isn't closed/dark? preferably of the same sort of price (max 30Euro/40$)
On the other hand the bass goes down to 37hz, clearly present but with too much excursion, that's for a small 13Liter tapered transmission line, tuned to about 53hz. That's a 37 hz tone sounding as strong as a 70Hz tone with a driver that suppose to resonate at 60, but probably resonates slightly higher. It manages to reproduce a thunder sound quite right even the really low components, no problem with earthquake or avalanche sounds ... very good bass reproduction.
Can anybody name a fullrange driver of about the same size (Sd=65-90cm2, 5 inch driver)) that is known to have a sound that isn't closed/dark? preferably of the same sort of price (max 30Euro/40$)
SPH-68X/AD
MONACOR INTERNATIONAL : Produktdetailseite
klick PRODUKTKURVE and compair to
MONACOR INTERNATIONAL : Produktdetailseite
but only 1 mm stroke,
a horn would be a best solution,
in the KORNETT stroke below 0,6 mm
down to 34 Hz 1 W 1m ~ 88 dB
MONACOR INTERNATIONAL : Produktdetailseite
klick PRODUKTKURVE and compair to
MONACOR INTERNATIONAL : Produktdetailseite
but only 1 mm stroke,
a horn would be a best solution,
in the KORNETT stroke below 0,6 mm
down to 34 Hz 1 W 1m ~ 88 dB
As I said earlier I will make my experience available and here are the conclusions: the SPH-60x sounds closed in no matter what and there is nothing to be done about this, it needs a "heretic" tweeter to solve this problem. As far as the tapered design for this driver is concerned I would say a volume of 20-25 liters will be fine, but don't tune too low, just leave it to about 60Hz. With this in mind the french project (look at the fist post) is pretty close - 27 liters @ 60Hz. You can use Hornresp to model a transmission line to get the additional details for length and section area.
The driver has a natural shallow fading in the bass response so don't bother about what happens bellow 60Hz.
As far as my attempt is concern I'm searching for another driver which will sound bright and will be of notoriously good quality, probably Fostex (4-5 inch model).
The driver has a natural shallow fading in the bass response so don't bother about what happens bellow 60Hz.
As far as my attempt is concern I'm searching for another driver which will sound bright and will be of notoriously good quality, probably Fostex (4-5 inch model).
We did measure a Monacor SPH 60 X for a contest speaker and decided to use it in combination with two Audax AT170G4. For the measurement a DIN-baffle was used and the mic had 50 cm distance to the speaker around 2 m above ground. The frequency readings and the energy curve (?) are attached.
I also attached a picture of our test mule and the Monacor sounds quite good in this combination but it isn't made for higher output levels.
It is in fact not very "on point" concerning your idea but the driver isn't so bad if used in the correct environment (in my case closed box).
I also attached a picture of our test mule and the Monacor sounds quite good in this combination but it isn't made for higher output levels.
It is in fact not very "on point" concerning your idea but the driver isn't so bad if used in the correct environment (in my case closed box).
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Interesting it would be compared to the RS 40-1354 as a similar, yet more extended alternative [scroll down to 1354a]: Single Driver Website
For sure, it's more extended, but the ~2 kHz 'hump' followed by a shelved response confirms what krakatoa is hearing, whereas the 40-1354 has the opposite HF response. With the modest tweaks I did to smooth it out a bit, its overall performance that MLS measured in an acoustically large MLTL was +/- 3 dB from ~40-12.5 kHz. Folks at a DIY Meet referred to its performance as 'toe tappin[g]'.
The eventual owner has since auditioned CSS's FR125S, EL70 [both 1st gen.] and a couple of other RS drivers, but keeps returning to the 1354 for its better overall 'telephone BW'. His HF hearing is long gone to work related noise abuse, so performance above ~8 kHz is moot, though both he and his neighbors in the apartment building were quite impressed with the EL70's bass response.
GM
For sure, it's more extended, but the ~2 kHz 'hump' followed by a shelved response confirms what krakatoa is hearing, whereas the 40-1354 has the opposite HF response. With the modest tweaks I did to smooth it out a bit, its overall performance that MLS measured in an acoustically large MLTL was +/- 3 dB from ~40-12.5 kHz. Folks at a DIY Meet referred to its performance as 'toe tappin[g]'.
The eventual owner has since auditioned CSS's FR125S, EL70 [both 1st gen.] and a couple of other RS drivers, but keeps returning to the 1354 for its better overall 'telephone BW'. His HF hearing is long gone to work related noise abuse, so performance above ~8 kHz is moot, though both he and his neighbors in the apartment building were quite impressed with the EL70's bass response.
GM
Of course! The difference between a 'shouty' driver and 'closed in'/dull one can be a change in surround, spider design or damping compound or diaphragm formulation. The 1354 got ruined when its manufacture was switched from Taiwan to Thailand. It still met the RS specs, but it sure didn't perform nearly as well.
GM
GM
Ok... here is my last attempt to make this driver work:
Is there any way to strengthen the high frequency response by modifying the driver?
I have no idea what might that be, but I've heard tricks around the forum which have an effect on the frequency response like phase plugs... perhaps there is something out there for the higher spectrum (6000-10000Hz).
Is there any way to strengthen the high frequency response by modifying the driver?
I have no idea what might that be, but I've heard tricks around the forum which have an effect on the frequency response like phase plugs... perhaps there is something out there for the higher spectrum (6000-10000Hz).
This will 'tighten up'/damp spurious mechanical resonances and should be done to get the most out of inexpensively built drivers/horns, though me and others that have posted their way to deal with them resort to easier to implement solutions; but see no way it would increase the diaphragm material's wave speed, which is what's required for the BW you want to increase its amplitude. For sure, I've never noticed any HF improvement beyond a perceived increased clarity, but if it needed a [super] tweeter before frame tweaking [don't forget to damp the inside of the basket [legs]], it still needed one after.
GM
GM
The whole idea is to try to avoid buying another set of drivers - more money and more risks... there is no guaranty that Fostex fe126en which would be my first choice is going to sound ok to my ears - realism in the mids and highs and strong enough in the bass not to annoy.
Adding a tweeter is to expensive and not the way I want to go (that's a two way system). I will only buy a different set of fullrangers hoping I will get it right this time (SPH60x is my 3rd attempt), but I haven't yet found any driver within 100$ a pair that has SPL of 89 (or more) at a size of 5 1/2inches/13 cm and bass down to 60Hz; I'm skeptical about the Fostex Fe126en when it comes to bass in generally and especially below Fs.
That's why I'm searching for any possible tricks to solve those deficient high frequencies, plus I get to keep the good bass of the Monacors.
Adding a tweeter is to expensive and not the way I want to go (that's a two way system). I will only buy a different set of fullrangers hoping I will get it right this time (SPH60x is my 3rd attempt), but I haven't yet found any driver within 100$ a pair that has SPL of 89 (or more) at a size of 5 1/2inches/13 cm and bass down to 60Hz; I'm skeptical about the Fostex Fe126en when it comes to bass in generally and especially below Fs.
That's why I'm searching for any possible tricks to solve those deficient high frequencies, plus I get to keep the good bass of the Monacors.
Are you using a computer as source? In that case use the EQ as a way to tweak the HF..?
Otherwise I wouldn't consider using a tweeter as "cheating". 8000Hz is a bit low, but is still above where most speakers cross, plus you wouldn't touch the FR only augment it/help it.
Psychoacoustics are not very intuitive or easy to figure out for layman. A cheap tweeter like one of the audax ones might just fit the bill and give that extra air the you want, even if crossed at one of the the usual supertweeter frequencies like 10Khz.
Otherwise I wouldn't consider using a tweeter as "cheating". 8000Hz is a bit low, but is still above where most speakers cross, plus you wouldn't touch the FR only augment it/help it.
Psychoacoustics are not very intuitive or easy to figure out for layman. A cheap tweeter like one of the audax ones might just fit the bill and give that extra air the you want, even if crossed at one of the the usual supertweeter frequencies like 10Khz.
I don't want a tweeter... I want a fullranger.
I use as a last resort and comparison a car fullranger (a dual cone) that I bought as new... which should be of much lower quality judging by the small magnet (much smaller then the SPH-60) and very high Fs=125hz, but of similar size (13cm) and I'm telling you that in a TL you get bass down to about 70hz and much better tonal balance than with the SPH-60x... and that's with a driver that costs half as the Monacor model, and with specs (unknown) that would scare away anybody that knows that hi-fi stands for high-fidelity.
The truth is that it sounds better... on it's own, no tweeters, no EQ!
If they could do it for 14$/13cm car speaker why can't they do it for 50$/13cm home speaker, properly this time?
I use as a last resort and comparison a car fullranger (a dual cone) that I bought as new... which should be of much lower quality judging by the small magnet (much smaller then the SPH-60) and very high Fs=125hz, but of similar size (13cm) and I'm telling you that in a TL you get bass down to about 70hz and much better tonal balance than with the SPH-60x... and that's with a driver that costs half as the Monacor model, and with specs (unknown) that would scare away anybody that knows that hi-fi stands for high-fidelity.
The truth is that it sounds better... on it's own, no tweeters, no EQ!
If they could do it for 14$/13cm car speaker why can't they do it for 50$/13cm home speaker, properly this time?
Often there is little connection between price and quality (all within reason of course).
Trouble is only where to find those special deals and awesome secret drivers.
For example I live in Denmark and have ready access to many good condition, cheap/free used Beolit 707 drivers, which are great for certain applications. In other countries conditions might differ. Vintage Fostex/Foster drivers are apparently obtained quite easily in the US. Not so in EU.
A little scouting and luck can lead you to great things. It appears you were lucky on the first try.
Trouble is only where to find those special deals and awesome secret drivers.
For example I live in Denmark and have ready access to many good condition, cheap/free used Beolit 707 drivers, which are great for certain applications. In other countries conditions might differ. Vintage Fostex/Foster drivers are apparently obtained quite easily in the US. Not so in EU.
A little scouting and luck can lead you to great things. It appears you were lucky on the first try.
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