I have a room in the house with a set of circumstances that essentially dictate my results. It's the main living room of the house which ends up being the main home theater area for movies. As our master bedroom shares part of one wall and my wife is often asleep while I'm watching a movie, the limitation on floor-rumbling sound is obvious. Likewise, the wife has vetoed any speakers of significant size. Just as well, my Mirage M1s and M3s happily live in my listening room.
So this means the living room lives with the mild-mannered Harman/Kardon AV254, front Infinity Reference 2000.4 2-ways, Klipsch center channel, and NHT sub. All stuff that feels like it belongs in a college dorm room but nevertheless works very well for the intended purpose.
What I've been wrestling with is the side/rear surrounds. First issue was no clean way to get wiring back there (wall openings on both sides and running wires through the floor and into the basement or up through the ceiling would be a last resort), sorted 90% satisfactorily with a Monoprice wireless speaker transmitter package.
Second issue, what speakers that aren't vetoed by the wife as huge or ugly. Knowing that surrounds simply need to fill in some ambience rather than be stand-alone glorious, and after a string of bookshelf speakers and stands which invariably did not look good, required too much power that the Monoprice amp could not supply, or presented a tip-over hazard for our little dogs, I may have stumbled across an ideal package.
Starting with a simple generic pole stand, my absolute minimalist solution consists of nothing more than a pair of Dayton Audio 3" reference drivers at 4 ohms, part number RS75-4, attached to the stands by nothing more than their magnet. No enclosure whatsoever. The speakers are positioned close to a 135 degree corner for some reflection.
Having very low expectations in the first place naturally guaranteed satisfaction, but the truth is that I am actually impressed at the results given the utter simplicity. The tiny wireless amp drives them well and frequencies of voice and above are crisp and clean.
I know this setup seems absolutely silly, and as a 28-year veteran of appreciating and configuring high-end arrays, I would laugh at the idea if I read about it from some guy on the internet. Yet here I am, likely at a point where I'll stop messing around with alternate solutions.
See pics and please share your thoughts.
- Rob
So this means the living room lives with the mild-mannered Harman/Kardon AV254, front Infinity Reference 2000.4 2-ways, Klipsch center channel, and NHT sub. All stuff that feels like it belongs in a college dorm room but nevertheless works very well for the intended purpose.
What I've been wrestling with is the side/rear surrounds. First issue was no clean way to get wiring back there (wall openings on both sides and running wires through the floor and into the basement or up through the ceiling would be a last resort), sorted 90% satisfactorily with a Monoprice wireless speaker transmitter package.
Second issue, what speakers that aren't vetoed by the wife as huge or ugly. Knowing that surrounds simply need to fill in some ambience rather than be stand-alone glorious, and after a string of bookshelf speakers and stands which invariably did not look good, required too much power that the Monoprice amp could not supply, or presented a tip-over hazard for our little dogs, I may have stumbled across an ideal package.
Starting with a simple generic pole stand, my absolute minimalist solution consists of nothing more than a pair of Dayton Audio 3" reference drivers at 4 ohms, part number RS75-4, attached to the stands by nothing more than their magnet. No enclosure whatsoever. The speakers are positioned close to a 135 degree corner for some reflection.
Having very low expectations in the first place naturally guaranteed satisfaction, but the truth is that I am actually impressed at the results given the utter simplicity. The tiny wireless amp drives them well and frequencies of voice and above are crisp and clean.
I know this setup seems absolutely silly, and as a 28-year veteran of appreciating and configuring high-end arrays, I would laugh at the idea if I read about it from some guy on the internet. Yet here I am, likely at a point where I'll stop messing around with alternate solutions.
See pics and please share your thoughts.
- Rob
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While it is a very straightforward "solution", actually well thought out, how about this..
Being as these "fill" drivers, they will be doing just the echo effect, you are really only going to get very high frequencies...as the drivers have no baffles whatsoever. How about going to a Home depot & getting two of those 12" by 12", 1/4" thick wooden tiles??? Carve the appropriate size holes, mount the drivers from the back, stretch some fabric & voila! Being as those tiles weigh virtually nothing, the magnet should hold them up just fine. The drivers will propagate lower frequencies far far better.......otherwise I think they will just be "hissing" at you.
____________________________________________________Rick.........
Being as these "fill" drivers, they will be doing just the echo effect, you are really only going to get very high frequencies...as the drivers have no baffles whatsoever. How about going to a Home depot & getting two of those 12" by 12", 1/4" thick wooden tiles??? Carve the appropriate size holes, mount the drivers from the back, stretch some fabric & voila! Being as those tiles weigh virtually nothing, the magnet should hold them up just fine. The drivers will propagate lower frequencies far far better.......otherwise I think they will just be "hissing" at you.
____________________________________________________Rick.........
Hi,
The simple fact is any sort of sensible sealed rear enclosure
will improve matters dramatically, here about 1L stuffed,
given Vas is specified as 0.31L, over raw open baffle.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-380-dayton-audio-rs75-4-specifications-46834.pdf
Its very arguable as rears whether to fix the broad presence
peak without off axis responses and diffraction effects
taken into account in the modelling.
FWIW that is nowhere near a corner in any real sense.
rgds, sreten.
The simple fact is any sort of sensible sealed rear enclosure
will improve matters dramatically, here about 1L stuffed,
given Vas is specified as 0.31L, over raw open baffle.
http://www.parts-express.com/pedocs/specs/295-380-dayton-audio-rs75-4-specifications-46834.pdf
Its very arguable as rears whether to fix the broad presence
peak without off axis responses and diffraction effects
taken into account in the modelling.
FWIW that is nowhere near a corner in any real sense.
rgds, sreten.
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Bolt a foamcore square to the driver (I know X would approve ;-) and wrap it in felt in a tastefull colour, wallpaper or paint it in the same colour as the wall.
Or use acrylic if you are confident the base can support the weight.
It won't get you any real bass but still much more substantial sound with a minimum of effort.
Or use acrylic if you are confident the base can support the weight.
It won't get you any real bass but still much more substantial sound with a minimum of effort.
. Yes, I definitely approve! Make the driver offset from center or use a non square shape so that no two edges are same distance to reduce baffle diffraction. A Fibonacci spiral works well and looks cool. A 12 in wide baffle can get your bass to roll off closer to 300 Hz rather than 800 Hz to 1 kHz where it is now as bare driver.
My freehand Fibonacci spiral, a cardboard mockup to experiment. Made it fit the speaker cage snugly so that attachment hardware is not required. Mounted it behind as it is light enough and looks better.
I am pleasantly surprised at the results so far! Honestly, even more than I expected. Switching back and forth between 2-channel and 4-channel stereo (what I prefer for music and most movies) makes the improvement very apparent. Now the rear has body and fullness below vocals.
More experimenting to come. Thanks again for the suggestions!
I am pleasantly surprised at the results so far! Honestly, even more than I expected. Switching back and forth between 2-channel and 4-channel stereo (what I prefer for music and most movies) makes the improvement very apparent. Now the rear has body and fullness below vocals.
More experimenting to come. Thanks again for the suggestions!
Attachments
Nice experiment! I did something similar here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/251310-open-baffle-nautilus-fibonacci-solution-edge-diffraction-3.html#post3841588
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/251310-open-baffle-nautilus-fibonacci-solution-edge-diffraction-3.html#post3841588
Not to put the fibonacci thing down but an OBs extension is really only as good as it's largest dimension. This sure is better than nothing but maybe a larger spiral would be better? I don't think there is anything magical about fibonacci in this case though.
I still think the star pattern or a disc with gradually larger holes towards the edge would be better.
I still think the star pattern or a disc with gradually larger holes towards the edge would be better.
Just for kicks, I might try some of the small packaging boxes we have around. I know a ball would be a better choice, but I'm getting a kick out of doing this as minimalist as possible.
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Joined 2009
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A few thoughts to throw on the table so to speak
a) if it's only you, then the speakers could all be much closer to your chair - if you can minimize the distance to your head and maximize the distance to the bedroom then you will be able to have a louder sound field for yourself. If you are willing to move the speakers into position each time then you have a lot of flexibility about how they look - perhaps even hooked over the back of the sofa. Away from room boundaries there are fewer early reflections to mess up the sound too.
b) could you be happy with less precise rear surrounds - instead of actual speakers at the back/sides try projecting the sound from speakers at the front onto the walls at the sides so that the sound reaches your head from the rear/surround direction. I'm not sure, but don't some of the 'sound bars' use this trick ? The speakers would need to be fairly directional which works best at higher frequencies.
c) room treatment - can you better isolate the bedroom and it's door to reduce sound reaching that part of the house
d) camouflage the speakers - one option is to paint them same colour as the walls. Another option is to make them look like artwork - check out the cornu spiral threads where some folk have made 'em look like paintings hanging on the wall
a) if it's only you, then the speakers could all be much closer to your chair - if you can minimize the distance to your head and maximize the distance to the bedroom then you will be able to have a louder sound field for yourself. If you are willing to move the speakers into position each time then you have a lot of flexibility about how they look - perhaps even hooked over the back of the sofa. Away from room boundaries there are fewer early reflections to mess up the sound too.
b) could you be happy with less precise rear surrounds - instead of actual speakers at the back/sides try projecting the sound from speakers at the front onto the walls at the sides so that the sound reaches your head from the rear/surround direction. I'm not sure, but don't some of the 'sound bars' use this trick ? The speakers would need to be fairly directional which works best at higher frequencies.
c) room treatment - can you better isolate the bedroom and it's door to reduce sound reaching that part of the house
d) camouflage the speakers - one option is to paint them same colour as the walls. Another option is to make them look like artwork - check out the cornu spiral threads where some folk have made 'em look like paintings hanging on the wall
That would be a great idea except for the layout of this room and the through-paths. Wouldn't go over very well to have wife/kid/dogs tripping over wires.
Again, a good idea except for the wall behind the main speakers partially overlaps the master bedroom. i use this room when my wife is sleeping, so projecting sound at that wall has potentially negative health effects for me. That's why the rear surround (or second set of stereo channels) is important.
Blowing foam into the wall might happen in the future, but that's a bit more of an undertaking at this point.
I like that idea, or in-wall speakers, but to install and run wires is the roadblock at the moment. I'm trying "quick and dirty" first.
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Joined 2009
Paid Member
Wires within the stand poles is preferable to wires on the wall. By the time I'm hiding wires in the wall, I'll just drill down into the basement, run wires from the receiver, get rid of the wireless, and be able to properly power whatever speakers I use in the rear.
These little full-range guys really needed an enclosure.
Cardboard box, eyeballed to size for them. Although they don't have the bass response one would expect for such a small unit, I am quite pleased. They rival other quality desktop units without any reservation.
Cardboard box, eyeballed to size for them. Although they don't have the bass response one would expect for such a small unit, I am quite pleased. They rival other quality desktop units without any reservation.
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