Bas Horneman said:
Bas,
It was not a reply, it was a question. I really did want to know why. (in other words, I was hoping he would post a schematic). So, that's a bad example.
This is totally off topic, and I apologize, but...
I could care less what people want to do with their projects, but what I have zero tolerance for is the attitude of certain people that someone's opinion, no matter how outrageous, is as valid as any other, and must be accepted. There seems to be the feeling here that there is no objective reality in the world of audio, that there are no valid measurements, and that ideas counter to "the 1950's" (as Frank used to say) are to be encouraged, and represent the cutting edge. I think not one of these people is capable of reading, digesting, and utilizing the information in even the preface of something like the Radiotron Designer's Handbook. I have been studying that text for over two years, almost daily, and I'm not even close to being fluent. It takes much work, thought, and building.
Listening experiences may be subjective, but there are still objective realities, good design principles, and assumptions.
The poeple arguing that caps can "flavor" an amp, that tubes are "warm and smooth", that resistors are crucial components to the sound, are completely ignorant. They have little or no real technical knowledge, and no desire to learn any. It's empowering to them to think that they and their "experiments" with capacitors are on par with the great minds of the last 50 years in audio engineering, but they are deluding themselves, and the amateurs that come on to this forum to learn something. One guy like Frank can incite 20 or 30 DIY'ers to throw true learning out the window. And that's because it's easier to do, than to sit down a read some hard technical material, and people are essentially lazy.
Every minute spent discussing this passive component bullsh*t is a wasted minute, and you people would be better off reading a Crowhurst article.
Joel
Hi Joel,
Well you are very right when you say..."Every minute spent discussing this passive component bullsh*t is a wasted minute, and you people would be better off reading a Crowhurst article"
I have a Radiotron Designer's Handbook right in front of me. But am to lazy as well to really get into it..plus I just don't have the right brain..I.e. mathematics. :-( . And Morgan Jones's Valve amplifiers and some others..
I pick it up (RDH) every now and then...only to put it down dissapointed that I have not learnt anything...(It is all so theoretical) It's just to hard/complex for me.
The other side of the coin is..that it is hard to motivate oneself if you are able to create a project that is ..in my mind at least ...very decent.
But I have learnt plenty by these boards from general observations..made by learned and not so learned folk... And that is all I wanted ....to create some understanding for the "uneducated masses" that frequent these diy boards (To try and learn something nonetheless) If only what resistors are good to get for their project. Takes plenty of time to order and select all the parts anyway... :-(
Anyway..I think we are on the same wavelength..... but I still think that a little common sense gets you very very far. Especially with tubes...
Well you are very right when you say..."Every minute spent discussing this passive component bullsh*t is a wasted minute, and you people would be better off reading a Crowhurst article"
I have a Radiotron Designer's Handbook right in front of me. But am to lazy as well to really get into it..plus I just don't have the right brain..I.e. mathematics. :-( . And Morgan Jones's Valve amplifiers and some others..
I pick it up (RDH) every now and then...only to put it down dissapointed that I have not learnt anything...(It is all so theoretical) It's just to hard/complex for me.
The other side of the coin is..that it is hard to motivate oneself if you are able to create a project that is ..in my mind at least ...very decent.
But I have learnt plenty by these boards from general observations..made by learned and not so learned folk... And that is all I wanted ....to create some understanding for the "uneducated masses" that frequent these diy boards (To try and learn something nonetheless) If only what resistors are good to get for their project. Takes plenty of time to order and select all the parts anyway... :-(
Anyway..I think we are on the same wavelength..... but I still think that a little common sense gets you very very far. Especially with tubes...
HI Bas,
Yes, I did rave about the One Electrons. They are superior for the price. But, only 15 watts versus Hammond's 25.
John Atwood desires to do business only through Antique Electronic Supply.
However they have recently About June of this year. They wil claim they've done it for years) resorted to billing my credit/debit account two to three times (I use Paypal). They claim they and everyone else do a credit "verification". The only companies I ever saw do this were gas stations and restaurants. And that only for $1, not the full amount. So my funds get tied up for ten days while they get paid, and I cannot do business anywhere else.
So I am searching for another manufacturer unless John wants to sell to me or through someone else the 5-10 pair that I need to get in the near future.
I have found two alternatives, one for $50 apiece, one for $150. I suspect the latter more reliable, but the former claims to manufacture their own and can keep cost down and quality up. Right. Tests will tell.
Thanks,
Gabe
Yes, I did rave about the One Electrons. They are superior for the price. But, only 15 watts versus Hammond's 25.
John Atwood desires to do business only through Antique Electronic Supply.
However they have recently About June of this year. They wil claim they've done it for years) resorted to billing my credit/debit account two to three times (I use Paypal). They claim they and everyone else do a credit "verification". The only companies I ever saw do this were gas stations and restaurants. And that only for $1, not the full amount. So my funds get tied up for ten days while they get paid, and I cannot do business anywhere else.
So I am searching for another manufacturer unless John wants to sell to me or through someone else the 5-10 pair that I need to get in the near future.
I have found two alternatives, one for $50 apiece, one for $150. I suspect the latter more reliable, but the former claims to manufacture their own and can keep cost down and quality up. Right. Tests will tell.
Thanks,
Gabe
Joel,
I agree with you except for one point: Capacitors.
There have been many objective bench tests of different capacitors and they do add or subtract a certain audible "flavor" if you will. Considering the fact that our ears, all other things notwithstanding, can detect very very small amounts of change in amplitude, means that even a +/-0.2dB shift in frequency response curve due to a certain capactor can be heard as pleasant or otherwise.
Capacitors are, since you have read RDH, the equivalent of caps, chokes and resistances. The amount of the other factors makes for a... complex filter. So, with the sensitive high impedance inputs of tubes, they will tend to sound a bit different, especially in amplifiers that do not use NFB to compensate for the frequency variations, or as it was once called "frequency distortion".
Hence why many do comparison listening of one cap to another.
Very many very educated and experienced engineers (much more than I) I know do use computer grade caps, non-electrolytic smoothers, and poly or paper in oil interstage caps. I wonder why?
Gabe
Just a thought.
I agree with you except for one point: Capacitors.
There have been many objective bench tests of different capacitors and they do add or subtract a certain audible "flavor" if you will. Considering the fact that our ears, all other things notwithstanding, can detect very very small amounts of change in amplitude, means that even a +/-0.2dB shift in frequency response curve due to a certain capactor can be heard as pleasant or otherwise.
Capacitors are, since you have read RDH, the equivalent of caps, chokes and resistances. The amount of the other factors makes for a... complex filter. So, with the sensitive high impedance inputs of tubes, they will tend to sound a bit different, especially in amplifiers that do not use NFB to compensate for the frequency variations, or as it was once called "frequency distortion".
Hence why many do comparison listening of one cap to another.
Very many very educated and experienced engineers (much more than I) I know do use computer grade caps, non-electrolytic smoothers, and poly or paper in oil interstage caps. I wonder why?
Gabe
Just a thought.
Gabevee said:
I know exactly why: because they are trying to sell amps, or appeal to the ignorant masses. A tube audio company will not be taken seriously in today's market unless they sport designer passive components. I'm sure some of them are annoyed as hell that they have to sink to that level - but that's the way it is. You can thank the glossy magazines, and the internet.
Go back in time 50 years, and ask David Hafler what capacitor sound he prefers in his amps. He will look at you like you are an idiot.
Something to think about.
Joel
Very strong opinions indeed. Bordering to rudeness if one is to take you seriously. It may annoy you to know that a lot of highly educated people around here do believe that passive (and active) components can make or break a design. You may not have to use the 'flavour of the day' boutique part in order to achieve good sound, but using 'bad' parts will easily make anything unlistenable. That is if you can hear of course.
You may have also noticed that Hafler's amps are not particularly sought items today, unless of course you're desperate to get a chassis for a project
Your ignorance of the importance of components is in no way better than someone's ignorance of how to use numbers to prove audio superiority.
peter
Very strong opinions indeed. Bordering to rudeness if one is to take you seriously. It may annoy you to know that a lot of highly educated people around here do believe that passive (and active) components can make or break a design. You may not have to use the 'flavour of the day' boutique part in order to achieve good sound, but using 'bad' parts will easily make anything unlistenable. That is if you can hear of course.
You may have also noticed that Hafler's amps are not particularly sought items today, unless of course you're desperate to get a chassis for a project
Your ignorance of the importance of components is in no way better than someone's ignorance of how to use numbers to prove audio superiority.
peter
Dit sit.. sê vir hom boeta...sien die donner reg!
"You may have also noticed that Hafler's amps are not particularly sought items today, unless of course you're desperate to get a chassis for a project "
Fok! Ek het gelag toe ek dit lees..!
Wens net die bokke was so slim soos jy was.
Cheers,
Bas
"You may have also noticed that Hafler's amps are not particularly sought items today, unless of course you're desperate to get a chassis for a project "
Fok! Ek het gelag toe ek dit lees..!
Wens net die bokke was so slim soos jy was.
Cheers,
Bas
Yes, both the spectral content as well as the level of the distortion determine how pleasant / unpleasant it is.Gabevee said:
As for the amount of distortion generated by the ear, the chart below adds some numbers to it. I'm sorry but in my recent HDD crash, I lost a huge file with more data on this subject. Fortunately, this image was also in another file which I was able to save.
I sort of agree, provoding you are talking about specific amp's operation <i>near</i> clipping, when the usually much shallower knee in the transfer function of a tube amp will have the same audible effect as a compressor. It does not explain why my 25W differential tube amp sounds louder (more powerful) in the 1W region to a similar power class A SS amp I have. (100+dB speakers)
The only place more than a couple of percent distortion is good is in a guitar amp, but lower levels can sound OK, even pleasant, depending upon spectrum. Unfortunately though, with high levels of THD comes IMD in many (most?) cases which is considerably less pleasant to the ear. Put an orchestra and chorus through most SETs and watch them fall to pieces.
3H can be caused by a lot of things, completely unrelated to clipping, and except for DHTs, most amps can be clipped continuously and survive just fine.
Cheers
Attachments
power addicted - no worry - cure is
I recommend some studying and reading, and why not some math.
This is said to anyone who want to learn.
This Remaining Open inmortal thread
can give a lot.
This is one of my few (only?) posts in this
magnificent collection of posts by several contributors.
Have a look at them pictures!
Recommended reading:
Very interesting reading - especially for Power Addicted Guys
I put a little Q, by Gabe's thinking at this moment.Gabevee said:
I recommend some studying and reading, and why not some math.
This is said to anyone who want to learn.
This Remaining Open inmortal thread
can give a lot.
This is one of my few (only?) posts in this
magnificent collection of posts by several contributors.
Have a look at them pictures!
Recommended reading:
Very interesting reading - especially for Power Addicted Guys
analog_sa said:
Yes, Peter, this is the comment that everyone seems to fall back on - "You must be deaf."
Well, all I can say is, if I'm deaf, then EVERYBODY before 1970 must have been deaf too. Can you please explain to me why I can't find, in any of the literature I've run across, a single reference to the sound of different capacitors prior to the birth of the DIY tube movement in the early 70's???
Ok, you don't respect Dynaco gear, that's fine. But do you respect ANY design work from the 20's-60's? Don't you think that if a cap, or resistor choice could "make or break" an amp, that those guys would have thought to maybe mention it once or twice?? Isn't it at all troubling to you that they don't?
Heck, I should think it would be on page one of the RCA tube manual! "The choice of coupling capacitor type should be largely based on the perceived sound that said capacitor produces for the listener."
Please write back if you can explain that mystery to us.
how long ya tinku can "Run That Body Down" Paul Simon
but i love them small creatures
so i like to ceep em things safe
safest for me and what i gotto give
it is only at my own place here
you can need some antidopes
see: "halo better than ever before" -thread
i guess i have hung one more year to the line
how long ya tinku can
"Run That Body Down" Paul Simon first solo album 1972 - the best?!!
ive got vinyl&cd
what did you think
a real reallly really great&creative man, that one paul
incarnation, yes!
he treats his acoustic guitar as if he had golden ear
in fact in order to (logically-you get it)
you gotta 'av IT - that something! - some girls 'av
&some more ...... of us
i think there not much couldn't be cure with a little music
so help us god
giveth unto mee my recipee
i have no kidsJoel said:Halojoy,
I'm starting to really look forward to your posts. They're like a short, totally safe acid trip.
peace
but i love them small creatures
so i like to ceep em things safe
safest for me and what i gotto give
it is only at my own place here
you can need some antidopes
see: "halo better than ever before" -thread
i guess i have hung one more year to the line
how long ya tinku can
"Run That Body Down" Paul Simon first solo album 1972 - the best?!!
ive got vinyl&cd
what did you think
a real reallly really great&creative man, that one paul
incarnation, yes!he treats his acoustic guitar as if he had golden ear
in fact in order to (logically-you get it)
you gotta 'av IT - that something! - some girls 'av
&some more ...... of us
i think there not much couldn't be cure with a little music
so help us god
giveth unto mee my recipee
Joel,
I guess you haven't seen the plethora of ads since the '20s through the '60s for everyone to DIY their own radios and TVs, etc., in the electronics magazines, not to mention the newspaper articles of the '20s regarding how to build better radio sets and the hundreds of kits available. Notice Heathkit or any of the other kit manufacturers no longer exist! So DIY is not a 70s phenomenon.
During the 70's, DIY notwithstanding, manufacturing of components has gotten better with newer factories and the use of laser and better purifying techniques.
You must know that until the 70s the factories used were at least 60 years old, and to retool costs millions. Not to mention considering that the bean counters were demanding that the manufacturers use the cheapest components available. Hmmmm (Yeah, even Hafler had to worry about production costs). DIYers have only their wallets and desires to limit their production costs. Granted, there is that point of diminishing returns thing I mention often. So "boutique" components are 80% hype, I agree.
With the opening of trade relations with the Japanese, US companies had to do something to compete with their more superior products.
The engineers had to do the best with what they had at the time. And they did! I still marvel at the wonderful sound of a couple of amps I have using ceramics as interstage caps. But... it does get very noticably better with the newer made components.
I guess there is no accounting for experience.
Gabe
I guess you haven't seen the plethora of ads since the '20s through the '60s for everyone to DIY their own radios and TVs, etc., in the electronics magazines, not to mention the newspaper articles of the '20s regarding how to build better radio sets and the hundreds of kits available. Notice Heathkit or any of the other kit manufacturers no longer exist! So DIY is not a 70s phenomenon.
During the 70's, DIY notwithstanding, manufacturing of components has gotten better with newer factories and the use of laser and better purifying techniques.
You must know that until the 70s the factories used were at least 60 years old, and to retool costs millions. Not to mention considering that the bean counters were demanding that the manufacturers use the cheapest components available. Hmmmm (Yeah, even Hafler had to worry about production costs). DIYers have only their wallets and desires to limit their production costs. Granted, there is that point of diminishing returns thing I mention often. So "boutique" components are 80% hype, I agree.
With the opening of trade relations with the Japanese, US companies had to do something to compete with their more superior products.
The engineers had to do the best with what they had at the time. And they did! I still marvel at the wonderful sound of a couple of amps I have using ceramics as interstage caps. But... it does get very noticably better with the newer made components.
I guess there is no accounting for experience.
Gabe
Gabe, thanks for the history lesson, and the insult - "I guess there is no accounting for experience."
But, what does any of that have to do with what I said?
I read old issues of QST magazine from the 20's, so I'm well aware of when home construction began, thank you very much.
Let me reiterate:
My point with using the 70's as a beginning point is that this is when all the professional enginneers and commercial designers dropped out of tube work. What you have left are a bunch of amateurs. Bam! All of a sudden (it's a miracle?), capacitors develop individual sounds, and "sonic" properties. Hmmm, how strange.
Even today, some truly pro, quality companies do not play this bs game. Sprague Orange drops, which for 10 years were touted as the savior of mankind by "gurus", are described in their literature this way: "Type 715P capacitors are ideal for applications where high AC current flow is found as in certain solid-state TV vertical circuits, RF generators...", etc. They could very easily say "and they sound GREAT!", but they don't print this. Why?
But, what does any of that have to do with what I said?
I read old issues of QST magazine from the 20's, so I'm well aware of when home construction began, thank you very much.
Let me reiterate:
My point with using the 70's as a beginning point is that this is when all the professional enginneers and commercial designers dropped out of tube work. What you have left are a bunch of amateurs. Bam! All of a sudden (it's a miracle?), capacitors develop individual sounds, and "sonic" properties. Hmmm, how strange.
Even today, some truly pro, quality companies do not play this bs game. Sprague Orange drops, which for 10 years were touted as the savior of mankind by "gurus", are described in their literature this way: "Type 715P capacitors are ideal for applications where high AC current flow is found as in certain solid-state TV vertical circuits, RF generators...", etc. They could very easily say "and they sound GREAT!", but they don't print this. Why?
Capacitor sound
This is pretty ridiculous disscusion. Many brands of capacitor developed notoriety by users of the devices rather than the manufacturer. Many audio companies were not eager to share thier component choices. The word is out now and component manufactures and end users market based on the status of said components. Anyone thinks that the sonics of capacitors are not marketed needs to read a Sanyo, Elna, or Black Gate catalog. The sonic quality of components has been widely known and discussed for over 20 years. This is not a conspiracy theory and discussions with people with no experience on a subject are boring and a waste of space on the forum. This is old news........ GET A CLUE!
This is pretty ridiculous disscusion. Many brands of capacitor developed notoriety by users of the devices rather than the manufacturer. Many audio companies were not eager to share thier component choices. The word is out now and component manufactures and end users market based on the status of said components. Anyone thinks that the sonics of capacitors are not marketed needs to read a Sanyo, Elna, or Black Gate catalog. The sonic quality of components has been widely known and discussed for over 20 years. This is not a conspiracy theory and discussions with people with no experience on a subject are boring and a waste of space on the forum. This is old news........ GET A CLUE!
Joel,
First off, I apologize. My statement was not meant as an insult to you, but as a remark about the experiences of others, or lack of credibility you are putting into them.
Why doesn't the article say "and they sound great too?" Because 95% of all audio out there is solid state direct coupled. What do they care about tubes or audio applications? Audio nuts are in the minority. It's all about the bucks.
That is why we have forums like this to begin with, so we can share our personal real experiences with each other so we can all share in the audio loving experience. Not all here are professional engineers (and who says that a pro is more knowledgable than an amateur anyway? That would be a statement of arrogance!) so we glean off of each other. Amateurs may find something that "pros" may not be aware of! It is as many scientists lament "too bad astronomy is the only science that relies on amateurs". But I digress now.
This guy: http://members.aol.com/sbench101/ is an engineer not affiliated to any particular company, and likely has more experience than both of us put together (at least 40 years in the business). He wrote an article with hard emperical benchmarked tests about "the sound of capacitors"
There are definite measurable differences among the different capacitor types. There are some that will sound different than others.
Gabe
First off, I apologize. My statement was not meant as an insult to you, but as a remark about the experiences of others, or lack of credibility you are putting into them.
Why doesn't the article say "and they sound great too?" Because 95% of all audio out there is solid state direct coupled. What do they care about tubes or audio applications? Audio nuts are in the minority. It's all about the bucks.
That is why we have forums like this to begin with, so we can share our personal real experiences with each other so we can all share in the audio loving experience. Not all here are professional engineers (and who says that a pro is more knowledgable than an amateur anyway? That would be a statement of arrogance!) so we glean off of each other. Amateurs may find something that "pros" may not be aware of! It is as many scientists lament "too bad astronomy is the only science that relies on amateurs". But I digress now.
This guy: http://members.aol.com/sbench101/ is an engineer not affiliated to any particular company, and likely has more experience than both of us put together (at least 40 years in the business). He wrote an article with hard emperical benchmarked tests about "the sound of capacitors"
There are definite measurable differences among the different capacitor types. There are some that will sound different than others.
Gabe
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.