Well, perhaps that is something worth discussing at this point.
What is your budget for Drivers? If you got $500 for just the drivers, we can certainly come up with some great ones for you. But if your budget is $100 for drivers, then things are different.
Also consider that you can't really just make a simple 12dB/oct crossover. As long as you have active filters, you are going to have points in the response that need a boost, and points in the response that need to be cut back, all in order to get the response you ultimately want.
Note while some will say that an absolutely flat response is ideal, it is also not that uncommon for the makers of small bass driver speakers to build a slight boost in the bass range, to give the impression of good bass, for a speaker, that simply doesn't have that deep of a response.
Next, what is your experience with Active Filters? If you have experience and have resources available to you, fine. But if you are starting cold, then you might be in over your head.
As to the Dayton Classic 5.25", it is nice and flat up to 2khz, but then you have a substantial peak just above 2khz. You are going to need some extra circuitry to flatten that peak on top of the normal crossover.
One approach would be a known proven 2-way bookshelf design that you initially build as a passive speaker. Then as you work out the details of the crossovers and test the response of the speaker, you can work out what you need in active filters.
The problem with a 2khz crossover is exactly what I warned you about. Yes, lots of tweeter have a rate 2khz low end, but if you want to boost the power handling, you need to cross higher than that, or get a tweeter with a rated response lower than that. You may find some tweeters that cross as low as 1.5khz, so crossing at 2khz would not be that bad, but 2.5khz would be better.
Again, budget matters. And we can't make realistic recommendations until we know yours.
I believe that ZAPH uses this tweeter in one of his design, but it is a 3-way design -
Dayton Audio ND28F-6 1-1/8" Neodymium Dome Tweeter
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/275-040s.pdf
You could consider VIFA -
Vifa BC25SC55-04 1" Square Frame Tweeter
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-1024s.pdf
Vifa BC25SC06-04 1" Textile Dome Tweeter
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-1028s.pdf
Or a more standard Dayton Tweeter -
Dayton Audio DC28F-8 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/275-070s.pdf
But there are many things to consider in making these choices -
- you have to cross above the low rated frequency response of the tweeter
- you have to cross 1 or 2 octaves (a little help on this detail?) above the Resonance Frequency of the tweeter
- you need to consider available front baffles space. Some of the tweeter I suggested have very small face plates, other have larger face plates. If you choose the larger, the front baffle has to have enough room both inside and out.
- you need to consider any peaks that might need taming
- you have the advantage in working with op-amps so that if you need a boost in a small frequency range, it can be done. The question is, do you know how to do it?
- make sure you have enough room inside the cabinet for all the extra electronics, and to add the electronics without compromising the basic speaker design.
- make sure you have enough cooling to keep the amps from overheating
I think I can safely say that you will look through dozens of woofers and tweeter before you find a pair that will work together. I'm not saying that to discourage you, simply pointing out the fact of life that we all have to deal with.
Again, I think you best course is to search through existing proven designs, build it as is, then start testing you active components on it.
If you are going to convert from passive to active, you could add separate woofer and tweeter terminals to a removable cabinet back, then have the passive crossover external. That way you can use the external passive crossover for daily use, yet still be able to disconnect it so you can test your active circuits on the drivers.
Finally, what test equipment do you have? Do you have computer software to test the frequency response so you can see how your crossover changes are affecting the actual circuit?
There is available free or trial software for designing and testing speakers. I'm sure others can recommend the best.
Again, I'm not making specific recommendations, for that we need a budget for the drivers. I'm just trying to show you that doing this from scratch is a very LARGE task. Save yourself some aggravation, and start with a tested proven passive design, then you can concentrate on the electronics.
Again, MONEY rules the world. How much to you have for your drivers, and how much are you hoping the whole project will cost?
Again of course, what resources do you have available to you? How are you going to design the active filters - books, software, friends, teachers, etc...? Then, what software or other tools do you have to test the design?
Again, don't be discourage, all the complexities I'm laying out for you are the very complexities we all face. The difference is, most of the people here have been doing this for uears, and over time, they have managed to gather to tools and experience. Sadly, I would be one of the weakest and least experienced among them.
Just some random thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
What is your budget for Drivers? If you got $500 for just the drivers, we can certainly come up with some great ones for you. But if your budget is $100 for drivers, then things are different.
Also consider that you can't really just make a simple 12dB/oct crossover. As long as you have active filters, you are going to have points in the response that need a boost, and points in the response that need to be cut back, all in order to get the response you ultimately want.
Note while some will say that an absolutely flat response is ideal, it is also not that uncommon for the makers of small bass driver speakers to build a slight boost in the bass range, to give the impression of good bass, for a speaker, that simply doesn't have that deep of a response.
Next, what is your experience with Active Filters? If you have experience and have resources available to you, fine. But if you are starting cold, then you might be in over your head.
As to the Dayton Classic 5.25", it is nice and flat up to 2khz, but then you have a substantial peak just above 2khz. You are going to need some extra circuitry to flatten that peak on top of the normal crossover.
One approach would be a known proven 2-way bookshelf design that you initially build as a passive speaker. Then as you work out the details of the crossovers and test the response of the speaker, you can work out what you need in active filters.
The problem with a 2khz crossover is exactly what I warned you about. Yes, lots of tweeter have a rate 2khz low end, but if you want to boost the power handling, you need to cross higher than that, or get a tweeter with a rated response lower than that. You may find some tweeters that cross as low as 1.5khz, so crossing at 2khz would not be that bad, but 2.5khz would be better.
Again, budget matters. And we can't make realistic recommendations until we know yours.
I believe that ZAPH uses this tweeter in one of his design, but it is a 3-way design -
Dayton Audio ND28F-6 1-1/8" Neodymium Dome Tweeter
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/275-040s.pdf
You could consider VIFA -
Vifa BC25SC55-04 1" Square Frame Tweeter
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-1024s.pdf
Vifa BC25SC06-04 1" Textile Dome Tweeter
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/264-1028s.pdf
Or a more standard Dayton Tweeter -
Dayton Audio DC28F-8 1-1/8" Silk Dome Tweeter
http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/275-070s.pdf
But there are many things to consider in making these choices -
- you have to cross above the low rated frequency response of the tweeter
- you have to cross 1 or 2 octaves (a little help on this detail?) above the Resonance Frequency of the tweeter
- you need to consider available front baffles space. Some of the tweeter I suggested have very small face plates, other have larger face plates. If you choose the larger, the front baffle has to have enough room both inside and out.
- you need to consider any peaks that might need taming
- you have the advantage in working with op-amps so that if you need a boost in a small frequency range, it can be done. The question is, do you know how to do it?
- make sure you have enough room inside the cabinet for all the extra electronics, and to add the electronics without compromising the basic speaker design.
- make sure you have enough cooling to keep the amps from overheating
I think I can safely say that you will look through dozens of woofers and tweeter before you find a pair that will work together. I'm not saying that to discourage you, simply pointing out the fact of life that we all have to deal with.
Again, I think you best course is to search through existing proven designs, build it as is, then start testing you active components on it.
If you are going to convert from passive to active, you could add separate woofer and tweeter terminals to a removable cabinet back, then have the passive crossover external. That way you can use the external passive crossover for daily use, yet still be able to disconnect it so you can test your active circuits on the drivers.
Finally, what test equipment do you have? Do you have computer software to test the frequency response so you can see how your crossover changes are affecting the actual circuit?
There is available free or trial software for designing and testing speakers. I'm sure others can recommend the best.
Again, I'm not making specific recommendations, for that we need a budget for the drivers. I'm just trying to show you that doing this from scratch is a very LARGE task. Save yourself some aggravation, and start with a tested proven passive design, then you can concentrate on the electronics.
Again, MONEY rules the world. How much to you have for your drivers, and how much are you hoping the whole project will cost?
Again of course, what resources do you have available to you? How are you going to design the active filters - books, software, friends, teachers, etc...? Then, what software or other tools do you have to test the design?
Again, don't be discourage, all the complexities I'm laying out for you are the very complexities we all face. The difference is, most of the people here have been doing this for uears, and over time, they have managed to gather to tools and experience. Sadly, I would be one of the weakest and least experienced among them.
Just some random thoughts.
Steve/bluewizard
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milsman,
I would be inclined to a larger woofer with greater Xmax and power handling.
This is where you must get a spreadsheet done to work out a budget because you WILL blow it. Little bits and pieces will add up quickly. The result will almost certainly be better than a bought or passive but be careful about underspending too.
If you go for a better woofer, it has to handle most of the acoustic energy and a cheaper tweeter, see Zaph audio for a cheap fairly good tweeter.
Frank
I would be inclined to a larger woofer with greater Xmax and power handling.
This is where you must get a spreadsheet done to work out a budget because you WILL blow it. Little bits and pieces will add up quickly. The result will almost certainly be better than a bought or passive but be careful about underspending too.
If you go for a better woofer, it has to handle most of the acoustic energy and a cheaper tweeter, see Zaph audio for a cheap fairly good tweeter.
Frank
Steve, I don't think so. I rank down there with the weakest knowledge BUT I did make active three ways on general principles;
Known quality boards, Rod Elliott's
Drivers with an extended range, smooth response curve and good quality
Adjustable level controls.
I don't believe people can hear as much as they claim to; most of it is "imaginitis", the power of self-delusion. Humans are exceedingly good at it, probably their greatest "skill".
milsman, have a crack. Odds are you will get something you will be proud of. Active means that if one bit doesn't work properly, it can be adjusted.
Frank
So this thread has reached a point that I kind of hoped it would when I began. It seems like now is as appropriate time as any to give some context and constraints to this project given that this has turned into a full on build thread. So let me give some background. I am currently a Mechanical Engineer at Duke University and this summer I had a really fantastic job where I worked with a rather large amount of very skilled electrical engineers. The experience really lit the fire beneath my electrical side of engineering and this sort of transformed to me finding a real passion in DIY audio.
Budget:
Total at the moment is probably about $500 but I'm willing to spend a relatively sizeable amount per month to continue building the project (in the $100 range)
Experience:
I'm going to be a senior this coming year so I have taken plenty of classes that are principle intensive but this year will be a lot of design. I have also taken a few electrical classes as no motor runs without power and power is relatively useless unless applied to something else. I am knowledgeable about most of the basic principles involved in both the electrical part of speaker design (e.g. filters, op amps, power, grounding,) as well as mechanical (e.g. doubling the resonant frequency, what a cut off means for the speaker, woofer vs. tweeter, etc.).
Resources:
As I said earlier, I will be at university so I will have many of the machine shops as well as professors and engineering friends who will want to help out possibly and pitch in for the greater good. I personally do not have any software currently that is all too helpful in terms of speaker or electrical design but I can have access to basic stuff (i.e. AutoCAD, SolidWorks, MAPLE, MATLAB). If a piece of software costs money and diyAudio seems to think it is truly worth it, I will most likely buy it for the sake of saving myself from future headaches. I have also ordered Loudspeaker Design 201 and Loudspeaker Recipes Vol. 1. Laying around are a couple of Forest Mims books, which is where I got started this summer with breadboarding and the sort. I have so far bought myself a pretty decent adjustable Weller soldering station as well as a few miscallaneous supplies like wire strippers, nippers, the basics. I can solder and do a few tooling tasks without an issue so at this point my biggest challenge is the design and ordering of all the parts rather than the actual construction.
I know this is sort of an uphill battle and I AM WILLING TO USE KITS FOR THE ACTUAL DRIVER AND BOX, but this is only because I have had my fill for mechanical design for now and my ambition has turned mostly to doing my own electrical work and design. I am aware of all the things that can be bought assembled or pre designed but this has become a labor of love and I feel like the learning experience is the biggest thing I will get out of this as clearly for $500 I can buy myself a pretty decent set of speakers but hopefully I will learn much and gain the ability to build and design some mean speakers as well as end up with my own set built by me. I really don't want to order a PartsExpress kit, assemble it passive crossover and all included, plug it in and call it a day.
Requirements:
1.) 2 way bookshelf speaker.
2.) Drivers to be actively crossed over.
3.) All drivers powered by kits from ChipAmp.com as the site is extremely well reviewed, provides a pretty good balance of DIY and things already thought out and tested.
I do not have any test equipment but again for recommendations or actual work for me
D please?) I turn to diyAudio.
At this point all my time has been spent getting myself together in terms of what I want and gethering together the most basic of supplies to kick off such a project and I feel like I have a pretty solid foundation albeit a pretty small one to do what I want. Where do I go from here? Thanks for all the input. I suppose the first step is picking the speaker kit or drivers. Help?
Miles
Budget:
Total at the moment is probably about $500 but I'm willing to spend a relatively sizeable amount per month to continue building the project (in the $100 range)
Experience:
I'm going to be a senior this coming year so I have taken plenty of classes that are principle intensive but this year will be a lot of design. I have also taken a few electrical classes as no motor runs without power and power is relatively useless unless applied to something else. I am knowledgeable about most of the basic principles involved in both the electrical part of speaker design (e.g. filters, op amps, power, grounding,) as well as mechanical (e.g. doubling the resonant frequency, what a cut off means for the speaker, woofer vs. tweeter, etc.).
Resources:
As I said earlier, I will be at university so I will have many of the machine shops as well as professors and engineering friends who will want to help out possibly and pitch in for the greater good. I personally do not have any software currently that is all too helpful in terms of speaker or electrical design but I can have access to basic stuff (i.e. AutoCAD, SolidWorks, MAPLE, MATLAB). If a piece of software costs money and diyAudio seems to think it is truly worth it, I will most likely buy it for the sake of saving myself from future headaches. I have also ordered Loudspeaker Design 201 and Loudspeaker Recipes Vol. 1. Laying around are a couple of Forest Mims books, which is where I got started this summer with breadboarding and the sort. I have so far bought myself a pretty decent adjustable Weller soldering station as well as a few miscallaneous supplies like wire strippers, nippers, the basics. I can solder and do a few tooling tasks without an issue so at this point my biggest challenge is the design and ordering of all the parts rather than the actual construction.
I know this is sort of an uphill battle and I AM WILLING TO USE KITS FOR THE ACTUAL DRIVER AND BOX, but this is only because I have had my fill for mechanical design for now and my ambition has turned mostly to doing my own electrical work and design. I am aware of all the things that can be bought assembled or pre designed but this has become a labor of love and I feel like the learning experience is the biggest thing I will get out of this as clearly for $500 I can buy myself a pretty decent set of speakers but hopefully I will learn much and gain the ability to build and design some mean speakers as well as end up with my own set built by me. I really don't want to order a PartsExpress kit, assemble it passive crossover and all included, plug it in and call it a day.
Requirements:
1.) 2 way bookshelf speaker.
2.) Drivers to be actively crossed over.
3.) All drivers powered by kits from ChipAmp.com as the site is extremely well reviewed, provides a pretty good balance of DIY and things already thought out and tested.
I do not have any test equipment but again for recommendations or actual work for me
D please?) I turn to diyAudio.At this point all my time has been spent getting myself together in terms of what I want and gethering together the most basic of supplies to kick off such a project and I feel like I have a pretty solid foundation albeit a pretty small one to do what I want. Where do I go from here? Thanks for all the input. I suppose the first step is picking the speaker kit or drivers. Help?
Miles
As a young and inexperienced listener, you need to 'get out there' and listen to as many 'things' as possible, so that you might 'learn to listen.' Those 'things' are different recordings, on different systems, in different rooms, etc.
Bug all the hi-fi shops and mess around in their best rooms with all of their 'exotic' speakers (horns, ESL, full-range, etc).
Find spacious, symmetric rooms and try to set up speakers (even poor ones) in them.
Start noting (and collecting) music recordings that have certain characteristics that you might focus on when making comparisons. Keep those recordings separate from music you REALLY enjoy... (now I'm starting to ramble...)
I think you're diving in at the deep end (based on this thread) and spending too much time (and money?) focusing on areas where you don't have much practical experience. Perhaps start with headphones?
Bug all the hi-fi shops and mess around in their best rooms with all of their 'exotic' speakers (horns, ESL, full-range, etc).
Find spacious, symmetric rooms and try to set up speakers (even poor ones) in them.
Start noting (and collecting) music recordings that have certain characteristics that you might focus on when making comparisons. Keep those recordings separate from music you REALLY enjoy... (now I'm starting to ramble...)
I think you're diving in at the deep end (based on this thread) and spending too much time (and money?) focusing on areas where you don't have much practical experience. Perhaps start with headphones?
True enough but for now this is what I want to do. I am aware of headphone amps but this project is something I really really have longed to do for a while now. I did not say I want to have every single thing done from scratch (see above where I am putting the amps together using chipamp.com kits). Regardless of all the things I could listen to, being a college student and already having headphones I am thrilled with I
1) Want to build something myself
2) Want to play music for the whole room
3) Want to go through these growing pains and learn what I can via the process itself
I appreciate the advice but I need help designing this, not advice just telling me "don't do it". To me, as long as the sound quality is above what $100 speakers from best buy would give, I would be pretty proud of myself, but I do want to go above and beyond that. This is more about me making a DIY sound system than the concert hall perfectly tuned set an expert could put together.
1) Want to build something myself
2) Want to play music for the whole room
3) Want to go through these growing pains and learn what I can via the process itself
I appreciate the advice but I need help designing this, not advice just telling me "don't do it". To me, as long as the sound quality is above what $100 speakers from best buy would give, I would be pretty proud of myself, but I do want to go above and beyond that. This is more about me making a DIY sound system than the concert hall perfectly tuned set an expert could put together.
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I used to work for an audio shop that supplied discos and bands.
I lost count of how many drivers I replaced.
A lot of trouble was caused by too low wattage speakers used with powerful amps.
I have run discos since 1980 and never had a speaker blow yet. My rule is the speaker watts should be double the amp watts. Its grossly unlikely I could do anything to blow up teh speakers with this setup, in fact 30 years of experience proves this.
I lost count of how many drivers I replaced.
A lot of trouble was caused by too low wattage speakers used with powerful amps.
I have run discos since 1980 and never had a speaker blow yet. My rule is the speaker watts should be double the amp watts. Its grossly unlikely I could do anything to blow up teh speakers with this setup, in fact 30 years of experience proves this.
Nigel, this is the plan. Andersonix, sorry about the misunderstanding. I completely agree and will continue learning to train my ears as the saying goes. However, given the inexperience of me as well as most of my friends, this is more about the design and construction than actual listening experience if that makes any sense. Given that this is true and I have put down my parameters, I simply want something that fits my requirements as well as sounds "good". It's a bit counterintuitive, but for now I am more interested in picking my process of making the speakers the way I want to than picking the sound the way I want to then deciding on the construction and design. Can you help me in that regard and fitting some ideas to my design constraints?
I don't see the distinction, but that's OK, as I can definitely relate to wanting to build something decent 'right now.'
My first proper speaker was active and based around the Vifa D27 tweeter and two Vifa PH13 mids in MTM, both having smooth top and bottom end roll-off, making for very flexible, easy to adjust xo. Although it was a 3-way with an additional 8 inch woofer, I designed the mid-bass enclosure so it could be either sealed or ported for max flexibility.
Speaking of 2-ways, have you digested this little story (and also be sure to read the Newell study pdf linked-to in the story)?
The Yamaha NS10 Story
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Also I think you should now start a new thread about your project with a more descriptive title (possibly starting with your post #24?)
What do you think of Zaph's Seas metal driver project, but making it active? If nothing else those are phenomenal drivers, they look metallic-cool together, and the tweeter grill will stop your idiot friend from poking in the tweeter....
What do you think of Zaph's Seas metal driver project, but making it active? If nothing else those are phenomenal drivers, they look metallic-cool together, and the tweeter grill will stop your idiot friend from poking in the tweeter....
I think you can do this, and I think you have a good plan, which is - to minimize the mechanical and maximize the Electrical. But to do that, you want to concentrate on using an existing proven speaker design.
Besides Zaph here are a couple of other place to examine possible designs -
First this DIYAudio Forum has a section for 'Design & Building' -
Multi-Way - diyAudio
In addition, with in the DIYAudio - Multiway are sub-forum/thread as follows -
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/23208-system-pictures-description.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/28079-diy-web-pages.html
Here is another forum that is more oriented toward Home Cinema -
"Mission Possible" are proposed designs & design discussion -
HTGuide Forum - Mission Possible DIY
"Mission Accomplished" is a forum of completed designs -
HTGuide Forum - Missions Accomplished!
Troels Gravesen is also recognized for his speaker designs -
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
I'm sure there are many many more. If others don't give their own recommendations, then a simple search of Google should turn up something.
Actually, I found a long list of resources -
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=211558
Part Express also has its own Projects list, though some question the sureness of some of the designs -
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/projectindex.cfm
Steve/bluewizard
Besides Zaph here are a couple of other place to examine possible designs -
First this DIYAudio Forum has a section for 'Design & Building' -
Multi-Way - diyAudio
In addition, with in the DIYAudio - Multiway are sub-forum/thread as follows -
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/23208-system-pictures-description.html
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/28079-diy-web-pages.html
Here is another forum that is more oriented toward Home Cinema -
"Mission Possible" are proposed designs & design discussion -
HTGuide Forum - Mission Possible DIY
"Mission Accomplished" is a forum of completed designs -
HTGuide Forum - Missions Accomplished!
Troels Gravesen is also recognized for his speaker designs -
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
I'm sure there are many many more. If others don't give their own recommendations, then a simple search of Google should turn up something.
Actually, I found a long list of resources -
http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?t=211558
Part Express also has its own Projects list, though some question the sureness of some of the designs -
http://www.parts-express.com/projectshowcase/projectindex.cfm
Steve/bluewizard
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