Yes, you should. Perhaps add some thin weather stripping to the original weather stripping behind the panel to increase the clamping pressure.
And with these old ML's you should thoroghly inspect every single screw hole in the MDF cabinet for stipped out holes and repair as needed. Like the ones holding the PCB and the ones holding the panel clamping hardware.
And with these old ML's you should thoroghly inspect every single screw hole in the MDF cabinet for stipped out holes and repair as needed. Like the ones holding the PCB and the ones holding the panel clamping hardware.
Here's an unexpected find. In it's more expensive speakers Martin Logan uses film capacitors in it's HV voltage doubler bias supply circuits. In it's cheaper speakers ML uses HV ceramic capacitors in the HV voltage doubler circuits. All of the other electrostatics I've owned Dayton Wright, Acoustat, and Quad all used ceramic caps in their HV doubler bias supply circuits. It takes more voltage steps using more caps and diodes to use the lower voltage film caps and costs more. Given the cheaper grade parts like Jamicon's 85 C electrolytics that ML use in the internal electronics why do they go to the expense of a greater number of HV steps with film caps instead of few steps using higher voltage ceramic caps like everyone else, even ML themselves in their cheaper range? Is this one of the ways ML achieve better sound in their more expensive range besides using larger, better step up audio transformers and higher quality crossover caps (although even better caps help)?
So I replaced the unidentified 1000pf and 3300 PF 2 KV white film caps (metalized Mylar?) in the CLX bias supply with Wima 2 kv MKP film and foil polypropylene - when I first turned them on they were coarse and grainy for the first 15 to 30 minutes and now after 4 or 5 listening sessions with a variety of low and hi definition source material I find them to be even more resolving, detailed, and smoother sounding - just the same effect as upgrading coupling or crossover caps, but this time it's the HV caps. It's not expensive to use the Wimas and I look forward to see if anyone else tries this on CLS, Requests, or any of the other ML speakers using film or ceramic HV bias supply step up caps and reports on their results or questions my hearing or sanity .
So I replaced the unidentified 1000pf and 3300 PF 2 KV white film caps (metalized Mylar?) in the CLX bias supply with Wima 2 kv MKP film and foil polypropylene - when I first turned them on they were coarse and grainy for the first 15 to 30 minutes and now after 4 or 5 listening sessions with a variety of low and hi definition source material I find them to be even more resolving, detailed, and smoother sounding - just the same effect as upgrading coupling or crossover caps, but this time it's the HV caps. It's not expensive to use the Wimas and I look forward to see if anyone else tries this on CLS, Requests, or any of the other ML speakers using film or ceramic HV bias supply step up caps and reports on their results or questions my hearing or sanity .
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I have found that bias.... parts make the sound of any ESL....
I have you ever thought of puting better res....like 1% 15M were ML put the Chepest 5-10% 1/4 carbons ?....This should be done like your bias cap change before any Crossover upgread is done.....
Know matter what cap you use in the Bias....it has to pass right thu these res....
An on the older ML panels....the Kimber cabel Bias feeds can be changed for better sound.....
But most think none of this matters....your $10-25k CLX-an Art...have the same res in front of the panels Bias as ML $2k pr...
Just saying.........An yes anyone can hear the diff..............
Thanks for doing the work .....like i have to get the most out of ML speakers.....
Theres a lot more great sound to be had out of ML older an to me better Panels when re-worket!
I have you ever thought of puting better res....like 1% 15M were ML put the Chepest 5-10% 1/4 carbons ?....This should be done like your bias cap change before any Crossover upgread is done.....
Know matter what cap you use in the Bias....it has to pass right thu these res....
An on the older ML panels....the Kimber cabel Bias feeds can be changed for better sound.....
But most think none of this matters....your $10-25k CLX-an Art...have the same res in front of the panels Bias as ML $2k pr...
Just saying.........An yes anyone can hear the diff..............
Thanks for doing the work .....like i have to get the most out of ML speakers.....
Theres a lot more great sound to be had out of ML older an to me better Panels when re-worket!
Ohmite Thick Film Planar HV resistor......For ML CLxs...
the carbon sound dark roll off....in so places thats maybe needed
But all this better parts for better sound.... it all in our head.......hehe
but then were would it be...glad my head, brain still work....
hell have fun...you know what sounds better to you...
In most of the mid 90s on... ML bias..... i have... red-brown polproplen caps not ...HV ceramic .....?...i gess your talking about the newer MLs bias...gofig
Thanks Tic.. for any an all info on ML bias setup an what your brain hears.......
..
the carbon sound dark roll off....in so places thats maybe needed
But all this better parts for better sound.... it all in our head.......hehe
but then were would it be...glad my head, brain still work....
hell have fun...you know what sounds better to you...
In most of the mid 90s on... ML bias..... i have... red-brown polproplen caps not ...HV ceramic .....?...i gess your talking about the newer MLs bias...gofig
Thanks Tic.. for any an all info on ML bias setup an what your brain hears.......
..
Hi,
If You hear differences under certain conditions it´s all fine.
Just don´t claim that there are real differences.
Others might not hear it at all and even You Yourself might not hear it under different circumstances.
As so often, not knowing about the device beeing in place means not hearing it.
Or then, tell us please, why should there be any differences when the bias supply is doing nothing but replacing a quite constant charge?
How comes that an ESL functions for at least several minutes even without power line connection?
How comes that one can´t hear a Charge leakage blinker´s action?
The answer is simple.
There´s no action of Bias supply upon signal voltage within the audible range.
The only effect is a small variation of bias voltage with a very high time constant.
jauu
Calvin
ps. Uh oh, don´t forget to replace all fuses by golden plated ones.
You´ll see that life is easier if You carry fewer coins in Your wallet
If You hear differences under certain conditions it´s all fine.
Just don´t claim that there are real differences.
Others might not hear it at all and even You Yourself might not hear it under different circumstances.
As so often, not knowing about the device beeing in place means not hearing it.
Or then, tell us please, why should there be any differences when the bias supply is doing nothing but replacing a quite constant charge?
How comes that an ESL functions for at least several minutes even without power line connection?
How comes that one can´t hear a Charge leakage blinker´s action?
The answer is simple.
There´s no action of Bias supply upon signal voltage within the audible range.
The only effect is a small variation of bias voltage with a very high time constant.
jauu
Calvin
ps. Uh oh, don´t forget to replace all fuses by golden plated ones.
You´ll see that life is easier if You carry fewer coins in Your wallet
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Calvin,
Never said I heard it under certain conditions, I said I heard it it all the time after I'd changed them . I noted that ML used film caps in their bias supply for their more expensive speakers when all the other electrostatics I've owned used cheaper HV ceramic caps. I wondered if they did it because it had an effect on sound quality because they use cheap parts for the electrolytics on the boards why would they use film caps for the bias supplies when they cost more and tried the Wima's to see if changing them to a better cap / dialectric made any difference. I didn't think there was going to be any audible change at all, I was surprised that I did hear an improvement. ML also now use soft recovery diodes in the bias supply of their better speakers.
You can gold plate whatever you want and let me know how it feels, I don't carry coins any more....
Never said I heard it under certain conditions, I said I heard it it all the time after I'd changed them . I noted that ML used film caps in their bias supply for their more expensive speakers when all the other electrostatics I've owned used cheaper HV ceramic caps. I wondered if they did it because it had an effect on sound quality because they use cheap parts for the electrolytics on the boards why would they use film caps for the bias supplies when they cost more and tried the Wima's to see if changing them to a better cap / dialectric made any difference. I didn't think there was going to be any audible change at all, I was surprised that I did hear an improvement. ML also now use soft recovery diodes in the bias supply of their better speakers.
You can gold plate whatever you want and let me know how it feels, I don't carry coins any more....
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So you say..............
There´s no action of Bias supply upon signal voltage within the audible range.
If i set my ESL bias low.... my panels have less output.... an sound weard.. Fat base, rolled off highs......not good.... this is real.
..if i add more bias thay have more output......base gets tighter an it sounds diff...An i say sounds better..........................real.To me!
An if i ask others if thay hear the diff...thay do!.....real to them..
Now how much thay like the diff sound.....thay can say...
If i add to much bias....the sound of the sound gets hard ...others hear this also...
So how can i get the best..... real sounding Bias seting for my ESL...Amp...what ever??....Set the bias to what sound best....
So the better parts....Caps ...wire....Diodes....transfourmer.... that make up the bias...to me an others sound diff....an some times better..........hehe.....
but this is about geting the best sound.....for me an others....an thay can.. an well speak for there self...
There´s no action of Bias supply upon signal voltage within the audible range.
If i set my ESL bias low.... my panels have less output.... an sound weard.. Fat base, rolled off highs......not good.... this is real.
..if i add more bias thay have more output......base gets tighter an it sounds diff...An i say sounds better..........................real.To me!
An if i ask others if thay hear the diff...thay do!.....real to them..
Now how much thay like the diff sound.....thay can say...
If i add to much bias....the sound of the sound gets hard ...others hear this also...
So how can i get the best..... real sounding Bias seting for my ESL...Amp...what ever??....Set the bias to what sound best....
So the better parts....Caps ...wire....Diodes....transfourmer.... that make up the bias...to me an others sound diff....an some times better..........hehe.....
but this is about geting the best sound.....for me an others....an thay can.. an well speak for there self...
Hi,
Tyu, You are talking about the effects of Bias level.
Bias level affects the amount of force with which the electrical field can act upon the diaphragm.
Reducing Bias will result in softer sounding impulses and eventually the sound becomes dull due to dropping highs.
This is one of the reasons why Bias should always be as high as possible.
But this has nothing on common with the Q of Cap quality used in the Bias supply.
You see, the difference in Bias voltage when using a charge leakage Blinker is the flash voltage of the blinker lamp, approximately 90V.
So, the Bias is slowly shifting between a mean bias value +-45V.
The difference in Force upon the membrane, hence the difference in SPL is inaudible, not even reliably measurable.
Same issue but different source ... think about changes in power line voltage, which -transformed up- may reach similar dimensions.
If there were true (audible) differences, they needed to be either of considerably different output level (say >> 0.5dB), or must happen within the audible frequency range.
The first could simply be due to different capacitance values of the bias caps, resulting in a bias voltage difference of >>100V.
Then the attached panel would simply sing louder or softer.
The second reason required time constants so short that the ESL worked under low ohmic constant voltage conditions.
But with feeding resistors and membrane surface resistances well above 10Meg, the time constants are too low that anything reaches the diaphragm within the audible frequency range.
Now You're claiming that the truely miniscule diffences a film cap could possibly exhibit in this application, compared to the quite considerable bias shifting when using a leakage blinker will be audible to You under all circumstances?
I bet if You enter a room without knowing about the Bias supply design, You most definitely will not be able to tell film from ceramics.
jauu
Calvin
Tyu, You are talking about the effects of Bias level.
Bias level affects the amount of force with which the electrical field can act upon the diaphragm.
Reducing Bias will result in softer sounding impulses and eventually the sound becomes dull due to dropping highs.
This is one of the reasons why Bias should always be as high as possible.
But this has nothing on common with the Q of Cap quality used in the Bias supply.
You see, the difference in Bias voltage when using a charge leakage Blinker is the flash voltage of the blinker lamp, approximately 90V.
So, the Bias is slowly shifting between a mean bias value +-45V.
The difference in Force upon the membrane, hence the difference in SPL is inaudible, not even reliably measurable.
Same issue but different source ... think about changes in power line voltage, which -transformed up- may reach similar dimensions.
If there were true (audible) differences, they needed to be either of considerably different output level (say >> 0.5dB), or must happen within the audible frequency range.
The first could simply be due to different capacitance values of the bias caps, resulting in a bias voltage difference of >>100V.
Then the attached panel would simply sing louder or softer.
The second reason required time constants so short that the ESL worked under low ohmic constant voltage conditions.
But with feeding resistors and membrane surface resistances well above 10Meg, the time constants are too low that anything reaches the diaphragm within the audible frequency range.
Now You're claiming that the truely miniscule diffences a film cap could possibly exhibit in this application, compared to the quite considerable bias shifting when using a leakage blinker will be audible to You under all circumstances?
I bet if You enter a room without knowing about the Bias supply design, You most definitely will not be able to tell film from ceramics.
jauu
Calvin
Calvin,
I have used and modified ESL's for 40 years . I too wouldn't think it made a difference for the reasons of the long RC time constant, but I tried it, it's not a big difference, but I have listened 4 or 5 times to my long term reference material to be sure before reporting it., it sounds slightly better with greater resolution in each session since only the bias caps were changed. I don't claim to understand why.
System is Borbely Audio DAC, phono, pre and power amp - totally direct coupled Class A - all Fet and jfet signal path, Vishay bulk foil resistors, Blackgate caps - power amp has over 100,000 uf BG, Teflon bias bypass and RIAA EQ , shunt regulation.
I have used and modified ESL's for 40 years . I too wouldn't think it made a difference for the reasons of the long RC time constant, but I tried it, it's not a big difference, but I have listened 4 or 5 times to my long term reference material to be sure before reporting it., it sounds slightly better with greater resolution in each session since only the bias caps were changed. I don't claim to understand why.
System is Borbely Audio DAC, phono, pre and power amp - totally direct coupled Class A - all Fet and jfet signal path, Vishay bulk foil resistors, Blackgate caps - power amp has over 100,000 uf BG, Teflon bias bypass and RIAA EQ , shunt regulation.
On paper your points looks right, this is how things should be...maybe sometimes.
So if i have the panels that some here have said over an over Dont leak ...thay say there out there...................Maybe on paper...
So if theres NO leakeg.... Then diff Bias feeder res...or a diff cap or a diff diode or a diff wire......should not sound any diff than a nother......Right?
How ever.... it is funny that ML MUST think the better bias partes sound better.... we are talking bias bordes here.
99.9% of owners well never see this part of there speakers......Just saying
But all (my) panels leak.....an (i) think this is were the Bias parts can make diff in sound...I think all panels leak.
If i drive panels hard....It pulls Bias off the panles...i have heard this with SoundLab, Acoustat .....the sound of the sound boggs...Sounds like needes more Gas...Bias... hehe
Is this because the panels leaking......are being over driven...All of the above?
What force is pulling bias off?.....Mylars is making the sound.. output...thats bias is it not.....
Is this were the parts diff can make a diff in sound?...
Can one part Do a better job of handling.....the bias leakge.
...................................................An who can Say?.....You say not my ear!
All i do now in Audio is for me.... i well Diy-Tweek all i can to get better sound.
An just tell other what i hear............not so much what there not hearing..i well leave that to others..........
So if i have the panels that some here have said over an over Dont leak ...thay say there out there...................Maybe on paper...
So if theres NO leakeg.... Then diff Bias feeder res...or a diff cap or a diff diode or a diff wire......should not sound any diff than a nother......Right?
How ever.... it is funny that ML MUST think the better bias partes sound better.... we are talking bias bordes here.
99.9% of owners well never see this part of there speakers......Just saying
But all (my) panels leak.....an (i) think this is were the Bias parts can make diff in sound...I think all panels leak.
If i drive panels hard....It pulls Bias off the panles...i have heard this with SoundLab, Acoustat .....the sound of the sound boggs...Sounds like needes more Gas...Bias... hehe
Is this because the panels leaking......are being over driven...All of the above?
What force is pulling bias off?.....Mylars is making the sound.. output...thats bias is it not.....
Is this were the parts diff can make a diff in sound?...
Can one part Do a better job of handling.....the bias leakge.
...................................................An who can Say?.....You say not my ear!
All i do now in Audio is for me.... i well Diy-Tweek all i can to get better sound.
An just tell other what i hear............not so much what there not hearing..i well leave that to others..........
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Well heres one way to setup ML re-work panels.....An get a better sound anyone well hear ..Any time.....Anywere...
An can some tell me what is going on?...anyone... with the stepup transfourmer used by ML in this way.....
Great sound...in a lot of diff ways..Big soungstage...Sweet tone...
To day i have a tube amp an a SS amp driving the Same panel....thats a new one.............right
The stepup tranfourmers used by ML Has a center tap on the primary ...we well call it that.....
Thay run the Neg input to one side of the tranf winding....an the pos though the crossover in to the others side....then as is in the pic layout...make a nother crossover....we well call the cap setup that.....
What i have done is pull this crossover out an setup my own.....
as in there setup i have the res....3ea 3ohm ....an a 30mf cap only feed the pos input....
an in my setup 3ea 3ohm an a cap feeding pos to the center tap......
Like ML with the same crossover driven....out of the same amp sounds vary good...
But now i am driving the one end with pos input of a SS amp...
An the Center tap with a tube amps pos.....................nuts right....?
An the 2 amps neg ....to the same neg input...
Anyone with a primary centap can do this type setp....
So what can i say about the sound.........Vary great 3D...Big soud...best base ever out of the MLs
I well be puting the ML setup transf in my Acoustats ESL for the topend.. so i can use the centap feed...........................................it all been done... befor..Hehe
So tell me were have i went roung???????
An why theres know diff than the normel setp?
Thanks for any an all input on ESLs setups
one of the layout is not of the Odyssdy with the centap crossover.....one is...i could not pull the other............
An can some tell me what is going on?...anyone... with the stepup transfourmer used by ML in this way.....
Great sound...in a lot of diff ways..Big soungstage...Sweet tone...
To day i have a tube amp an a SS amp driving the Same panel....thats a new one.............right
The stepup tranfourmers used by ML Has a center tap on the primary ...we well call it that.....
Thay run the Neg input to one side of the tranf winding....an the pos though the crossover in to the others side....then as is in the pic layout...make a nother crossover....we well call the cap setup that.....
What i have done is pull this crossover out an setup my own.....
as in there setup i have the res....3ea 3ohm ....an a 30mf cap only feed the pos input....
an in my setup 3ea 3ohm an a cap feeding pos to the center tap......
Like ML with the same crossover driven....out of the same amp sounds vary good...
But now i am driving the one end with pos input of a SS amp...
An the Center tap with a tube amps pos.....................nuts right....?
An the 2 amps neg ....to the same neg input...
Anyone with a primary centap can do this type setp....
So what can i say about the sound.........Vary great 3D...Big soud...best base ever out of the MLs
I well be puting the ML setup transf in my Acoustats ESL for the topend.. so i can use the centap feed...........................................it all been done... befor..Hehe
So tell me were have i went roung???????
An why theres know diff than the normel setp?
Thanks for any an all input on ESLs setups
one of the layout is not of the Odyssdy with the centap crossover.....one is...i could not pull the other............
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