All true, but how audible is a range of cap values for HF such as I calc'd, especially when driven with a high output impedance? Between only using impedance correction on mid-bass/woofers where the audible difference was dramatic due to it affecting our most acute hearing BW and knowing only the one way to calc it which seemed to work so well, I never felt the need/took the time to experiment.
GM
GM
The German loudspeaker-DIY magazine "Klang und Ton", N°3/2009 has just published measurements for the Alpair10FR (they announce for the next issue a speaker project with this driver). I believe copyright rules prevent me from posting a scan of the page.
Their frequency response graphs show an excellent linearity with a minor +2dB bump between 150 and 300Hz, and again between say 2,5 kHz and 22kHz (which seems to confirm Peter's listening impressions). At 15°, the response is almost flat and the (swift) high frequency roll off starts at 8kHz or so.
They measured:
Z: 6ohm
Z @1kHz: 7,8 ohm
Z@10kHz : 12,8 ohm
Fs: 39,8 Hz
Re: 5,35 ohm
Qms: 2,50
Qes: 0,35
Qts: 0,31
Mms: 9,37 g
BxL: 6,01 Tm
Vas: 17,86 liter
Le: 0,33 mH
I will have a pair of these drivers tomorrow and will start experiencing as soon as I can.
Chris.
Their frequency response graphs show an excellent linearity with a minor +2dB bump between 150 and 300Hz, and again between say 2,5 kHz and 22kHz (which seems to confirm Peter's listening impressions). At 15°, the response is almost flat and the (swift) high frequency roll off starts at 8kHz or so.
They measured:
Z: 6ohm
Z @1kHz: 7,8 ohm
Z@10kHz : 12,8 ohm
Fs: 39,8 Hz
Re: 5,35 ohm
Qms: 2,50
Qes: 0,35
Qts: 0,31
Mms: 9,37 g
BxL: 6,01 Tm
Vas: 17,86 liter
Le: 0,33 mH
I will have a pair of these drivers tomorrow and will start experiencing as soon as I can.
Chris.
Tanks to all of you for your input !
I thought I am one of the few who is interestet in this driver but there seem to be much more - good to know !
I did some more investigations:
I also have a solid state Pre-/Power combination that I tried yesterday but the sound seem to has the same tendency as with the tube-amp (actually I prefer the tube amp). However I realised that when played in normal listening level the sound was great , but if you increase the volume than it starts a bit of the shouting.
Now my idea is - could it be that this is due to the fact that the driver is quite small, so if it has to produce bass it has to move quite wide and this than interferes with the high frequencies somehow ?
If that is the point than maybe the combination of Alpair 10 with Alpair 5 as proposed on the Markaudio webpage could be better handle higher volume levels ?
Just a thought ...........
Thanks
Peter
I thought I am one of the few who is interestet in this driver but there seem to be much more - good to know !
I did some more investigations:
I also have a solid state Pre-/Power combination that I tried yesterday but the sound seem to has the same tendency as with the tube-amp (actually I prefer the tube amp). However I realised that when played in normal listening level the sound was great , but if you increase the volume than it starts a bit of the shouting.
Now my idea is - could it be that this is due to the fact that the driver is quite small, so if it has to produce bass it has to move quite wide and this than interferes with the high frequencies somehow ?
If that is the point than maybe the combination of Alpair 10 with Alpair 5 as proposed on the Markaudio webpage could be better handle higher volume levels ?
Just a thought ...........
Thanks
Peter
that's exactly what im after also, combination Alpair 10 + 5
im using Jim Griffin's design to implement this, with a separate cylindrical box, using soild mango wood.
Im waiting for the cabs to be finished
btw, anyone try the PASS F5 with the alpairs? i feel its a good combinations.
im using Jim Griffin's design to implement this, with a separate cylindrical box, using soild mango wood.
Im waiting for the cabs to be finished
btw, anyone try the PASS F5 with the alpairs? i feel its a good combinations.
Attachments
tubes@home said:
You're welcome!
Right, if you can see a typical small 'FR' driver's diaphragm moving, then amplitude modulation distortion (AMD) due to cone flex and thermal power compression due to VC heating is altering its response in unpleasant ways, so best to limit its output below its HF mass corner (~2*Fs/Qts) if not sufficiently horn loaded.
GM
O.K. - So it looks like there are two options:
1. Add a tweeter like henry
@henry - did you listen to the MLTL already with only the Alpair 10 or why do you add the Alpair 5 from the beginning ? How do you want to crossover the two - on the Markaudio Website there are 3 different crossover frequencies suggested..
But with a woofer and a tweeter maybe the SDX7 + Alpair 5 might be a better choice ?
2. Put the Alpair 10 in a horn - but do the parameters of the Alpair 10 fit into a horn ? I saw another post where Henkjan simply put it in a horn that has been built for another driver and it seem to work fine !
As I am still dreaming of the perfect single-source speaker since years (had several Lowthers in the past and one is still up and running - but tonally the Alpair 10 is much much better in my ears) my preference is on a horn.........unfortunately it seem that no one has a real customized horn for the Alpairs - or am I wrong ?
Cheers
Peter
1. Add a tweeter like henry
@henry - did you listen to the MLTL already with only the Alpair 10 or why do you add the Alpair 5 from the beginning ? How do you want to crossover the two - on the Markaudio Website there are 3 different crossover frequencies suggested..
But with a woofer and a tweeter maybe the SDX7 + Alpair 5 might be a better choice ?
2. Put the Alpair 10 in a horn - but do the parameters of the Alpair 10 fit into a horn ? I saw another post where Henkjan simply put it in a horn that has been built for another driver and it seem to work fine !
As I am still dreaming of the perfect single-source speaker since years (had several Lowthers in the past and one is still up and running - but tonally the Alpair 10 is much much better in my ears) my preference is on a horn.........unfortunately it seem that no one has a real customized horn for the Alpairs - or am I wrong ?
Cheers
Peter
The Alpair is a relatively high Xmax design as FR drivers go (rather like the Jordan in that respect) but has a far stiffer cone than the majority, with AMD being substantially less than a lot of other units of this size / type. It's also pulling a few cunning little tricks to reduce VC heating. That said, it's always best to keep excurson down, assuming you don't throw everything else away in the process, as Olson & Kilpsch illustrated 7 - 8 decades ago, so anything you can do to improve efficiency in the LF where they have to work hardest is in principle a good idea. They'll work perfectly well in a horn if you designed one for them. I've already worked up several sets of plans.
@scottmoose - Did I understand you right that you already designed a horn for the Alpair 10 ? If so - are you using it yourself or did you just do it mathematically ?
As I wrote my speaker building experience is limited to be able to cobble something together if I have a plan - but no chance for me to develop something for myself - unfortunately.......
Are you going to post your designs ? I think not only myselve would be absolutely curious !
Thanks
Peter
As I wrote my speaker building experience is limited to be able to cobble something together if I have a plan - but no chance for me to develop something for myself - unfortunately.......
Are you going to post your designs ? I think not only myselve would be absolutely curious !
Thanks
Peter
Several, of different types (albeit all double-horns). The simplest BVR version is already here http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1814937#post1814937 & eventually will be on the FH site. I've done a couple of more involved, long-path designs as well, but a/ they haven't been drawn up yet, and b/ I'm not completely sure what I'm going to be doing with them yet.
Either way, the Alpair 10s specs are fine for back-loading; better than a lot of drivers in fact as their mass corner isn't too high.
Either way, the Alpair 10s specs are fine for back-loading; better than a lot of drivers in fact as their mass corner isn't too high.
Hi Henkjan,
I will post some experiences when its ready - unfortunately I'm sick at the moment so can not get the wood and start
Just one short question: The dimensions are all the outer dimensions calculated with 18 mm MDF ? So it should be no problem to use thicker plywood for the outside and adapt the outer dimensions a bit ?
Big thanks
Peter
I will post some experiences when its ready - unfortunately I'm sick at the moment so can not get the wood and start
Just one short question: The dimensions are all the outer dimensions calculated with 18 mm MDF ? So it should be no problem to use thicker plywood for the outside and adapt the outer dimensions a bit ?
Big thanks
Peter
Alpair 10 in a horn
I have used the Jordan successfully in both a MLTL and a back loaded horn(long path), and I have to say I like the horn better. A lot more dynamic bass. It's much larger than a MLTL however. The Alpair 10's T&S parameters look close to the jordans so I would guess that it would work great in a properly designed horn.
PJN
I have used the Jordan successfully in both a MLTL and a back loaded horn(long path), and I have to say I like the horn better. A lot more dynamic bass. It's much larger than a MLTL however. The Alpair 10's T&S parameters look close to the jordans so I would guess that it would work great in a properly designed horn.
PJN
@Henkjan - thanks a lot - I really hope to get well to start building the horns and compare to the MLTL - the MLTL sounds absolutely good if not played too loud ! So if the horn does the same when played louder it sure will be a killer speaker !
@PJN - do you mean the JX92S ? But when I compare the technical data they look quite different.......at least Qm and Qt - but I am no tech guy so maybe that is close enough ? I know there are some horn enclosures for the JX92 - I am just not sure if those would really fit to the Alpair 10 !
Thanks
Peter
@PJN - do you mean the JX92S ? But when I compare the technical data they look quite different.......at least Qm and Qt - but I am no tech guy so maybe that is close enough ? I know there are some horn enclosures for the JX92 - I am just not sure if those would really fit to the Alpair 10 !
Thanks
Peter
Hi Peter,
Yes the JX92S, not quite the same as the alpair but similar, and about the same size. The point is that lower Qts, higher excursion drivers can successfully be used in back loaded horns. Of course you would need to use the proper design software to make up a specific horn design for the Alpair 10.
PJN
Yes the JX92S, not quite the same as the alpair but similar, and about the same size. The point is that lower Qts, higher excursion drivers can successfully be used in back loaded horns. Of course you would need to use the proper design software to make up a specific horn design for the Alpair 10.
PJN
Hi PJN,
I think I will try the Henkjan Horn first and than I will see if this is the path to follow - I am also a bit fancy with those new Tang-Bands (W8-1172 or W8-1808).......
When youre talking about a design-software - is there something out there which can be used to built a horn ?
Thanks
Peter
I think I will try the Henkjan Horn first and than I will see if this is the path to follow - I am also a bit fancy with those new Tang-Bands (W8-1172 or W8-1808).......
When youre talking about a design-software - is there something out there which can be used to built a horn ?
Thanks
Peter
Hi Peter,
I used Martin Kings mathcad simulations, but some folks are using hornresp also. I think that hornresp is free but not as used friendly as Martin's sims. Unfortunately I hear Martin is no longer supporting his software, but some other gracious superusers on this sight might lend a helping hand. Check your email.
PJN
I used Martin Kings mathcad simulations, but some folks are using hornresp also. I think that hornresp is free but not as used friendly as Martin's sims. Unfortunately I hear Martin is no longer supporting his software, but some other gracious superusers on this sight might lend a helping hand. Check your email.
PJN
Attachments
Hi PJN,
I know there is a german program called AJ Horn which is used quite often and it is said that this is very good - however I think I will tsrat with the Henkjan Horn and than see how I like that. Maybe later I will start trying to built one myself - but that is in the far future.
The picture that you attached - did you built that ? Is it only one Jordan JX92 ? Very very nice looking - bet it sounds as good as it looks !
Cheers
Peter
I know there is a german program called AJ Horn which is used quite often and it is said that this is very good - however I think I will tsrat with the Henkjan Horn and than see how I like that. Maybe later I will start trying to built one myself - but that is in the far future.
The picture that you attached - did you built that ? Is it only one Jordan JX92 ? Very very nice looking - bet it sounds as good as it looks !
Cheers
Peter
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