Linn used to say low mass and ridged . I think that is correct . I use 401 and Naim Aro . Lyra Helikon ( on loan and I miss it ) . If you have heavy piece of furniture and two Linn LP12's try this . If you bounce one the other one starts up in resonance . Big movements I should tell you . That must mean something . Using LP12 right now myself . Love the 401 more .
B&O tables and mag lev
Nigel et al,
First I am not sure which B&O table the prof bought but if the "old school" types were still around, many earlier B&O tables were actually re-badged Thorens tables. The Beogram 3000 (IIRC) was essentially a TD124.The Beogram 2000 was a more modern interpretation still with a belt and idler drive. Some of their tables were Lencos, as well (at least they sure look like 'em). None were too bad regarding isolation. Pretty sure the prof did some analysis of tables before settling for one.
Unsure about any mag levitation tables. Anything that can levitate a suitable mass may interfere with the electric performance (both signal and power).
Nigel et al,
First I am not sure which B&O table the prof bought but if the "old school" types were still around, many earlier B&O tables were actually re-badged Thorens tables. The Beogram 3000 (IIRC) was essentially a TD124.The Beogram 2000 was a more modern interpretation still with a belt and idler drive. Some of their tables were Lencos, as well (at least they sure look like 'em). None were too bad regarding isolation. Pretty sure the prof did some analysis of tables before settling for one.
Unsure about any mag levitation tables. Anything that can levitate a suitable mass may interfere with the electric performance (both signal and power).
I have used both, my Dad has used an LP12 for a long time, it still sounds great when I hear it. I prefer the Garrard on a lot of material, they both have their strengths. LP12 is full and fruity, it's musical for want of a better word, despite being more obviously coloured they just work. Price for new ones is a bit bonkers. Generally I hate the word musical, like an Audiophile get out of jail free.
In the UK Linn users often used an Ikea Lack table.
LACK Side table - birch effect - IKEA
The B&O was the parallel tracker . Lets be honest it was about the worlds best for isolation . MMC 20 pick up with sapphire cantilever . In my opinion a TD 160 would have been an excellent choice .
LP12 is moderately good on feedback .
TD 124 .Now you are talking . I understand Loricaft have some they want flog cheapish ( now idea how cheap ) .
One of the best of that time was called Empire Troubadour .
LP12 is moderately good on feedback .
TD 124 .Now you are talking . I understand Loricaft have some they want flog cheapish ( now idea how cheap ) .
One of the best of that time was called Empire Troubadour .
Also it will not truly isolate the deck as the magnetic shelf would be attached to the surface that would transfer energy. A slight cushion at best.
Isolation is a difficult game, even for top grade engineers:
London Millenium Bridge Opening - YouTube
Project make a high mass deck with opposing magnets under and in the platter. Allegedly it puts less pressure on the bearings.
Pro-Ject RM10.1 Turntable
I think it's beyond bonkers.
Mine's on the fireplace hearth. The only think that's going to upset it is an earthquake.
jeff
Must go to bed soon . This is fascinating . The first mag-lev was perhaps the Platine Verdier ( and ADC ? ) . I love that turntable .
Linn had what was called the closed loop principle . The sound would go down the arm and return through the bearing in a closed loop . They would say mag-lev no good .
If you put screwdriver handle to the bone of your ear and the blade to the arm base ( easy on a Rega , not a LP12 ) you can hear the music . Surprisingly ,very distorted . Some decks not so . Those sound good I find . A Dual not good ( no critism intended as Dual are very reasonable ) .
The cheap Project is great value . I don't know the others . .
I knew someone ( Graham Old ) who tried mag lev on a Garrard 401 I think and said no good . I know the magnets if interested .
Linn had what was called the closed loop principle . The sound would go down the arm and return through the bearing in a closed loop . They would say mag-lev no good .
If you put screwdriver handle to the bone of your ear and the blade to the arm base ( easy on a Rega , not a LP12 ) you can hear the music . Surprisingly ,very distorted . Some decks not so . Those sound good I find . A Dual not good ( no critism intended as Dual are very reasonable ) .
The cheap Project is great value . I don't know the others . .
I knew someone ( Graham Old ) who tried mag lev on a Garrard 401 I think and said no good . I know the magnets if interested .
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I have 5 of these clearaudio Magix2 magnetic levitation pods to fool around with. The problem with them is they will not support much weight.
I have abandoned for now the idea of a light weight TT to take advantage of what they might do.
They seem to go thru their linear range to fast.
Have any of you guys messed around with these? Looks like you could modify them possibly for more weight.
I have shelved the idea for now but am open to ideas for another project this winter.
Regards
David
I have abandoned for now the idea of a light weight TT to take advantage of what they might do.
They seem to go thru their linear range to fast.
Have any of you guys messed around with these? Looks like you could modify them possibly for more weight.
I have shelved the idea for now but am open to ideas for another project this winter.
Regards
David
Also different tubes have differing rigidity, and they need topping up occasionally, which is why I moved the valves to the front. Endless fun, but works better with speakers than TTs for me. Maybe the extra mass makes it easier to get the resonance right? The bass definitely goes off when the pressure drops too much., but my main advantage is to reduce sound transmission FROM the speakers.I have experimented with the rubber inner tube method with a Planar 3, actually I think I used this for a couple of years. Worth a try, not a big difference but dirt cheap.
Then the question becomes one of inflation. What is the appropriate amount of air in the tube.
Maglev on the bearing would not be good IMHO. You need the platter coupled to the tonearm very rigidly. This removes the possibility of "common mode" rejection. If the platter responds to external vibration differently than the tonearm then you will have a signal generated in the stylus that is not related to the music. You need all parts of the turntable to move exactly the same in response to airborne or ground borne vibration in order to minimize non-musical input to the transduction process.
The best method I know of to experiment with isolation is to use a stethoscope. Listen to the platter surface while you tap on the supporting shelf as you make your modifications.
I have experimented with sorbothane pucks and spiking my turntable without any suspension whatsoever and the spikes yield a far better sound.
_4272392 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I mount my motor on a separate high mass object (two lead bars from an old arcici lead balloon) to absorb the noise from the motor.
The best method I know of to experiment with isolation is to use a stethoscope. Listen to the platter surface while you tap on the supporting shelf as you make your modifications.
I have experimented with sorbothane pucks and spiking my turntable without any suspension whatsoever and the spikes yield a far better sound.
_4272392 | Flickr - Photo Sharing!
I mount my motor on a separate high mass object (two lead bars from an old arcici lead balloon) to absorb the noise from the motor.
light weight turntables
The only way to get a turntable (in my limited estimation) to maintain speed without a lot of electronic control is to make sure that there exists enough inertia within the system to ensure good speed stability. So a light-weight platter needs a powerful motor drive system, or multiple small motors. Conversely, a high mass platter system can use a less powerful motor if implemented properly, or take my approach (at least design-wise): medium mass platters (7-10 lbs.) and powerful motors (I like the big 27 watt AC induction types), or 3 typical Airpax motors or similar. This was what I had intended to do to my Heybrook TT2 before selling it, which is a similar idea to the AudioNote TT2 (essentially a Systemdek IIX, with 2 motors, while the TT1 is essentially a IIX).
Years ago UHF magazine (Canada) did a (not very sophisticated) test of turntable isolation. Guess what tt was tops out of the following:
Jeff, earthquakes are possible in your local, I'd plan for the big one and put your table on something....
The only way to get a turntable (in my limited estimation) to maintain speed without a lot of electronic control is to make sure that there exists enough inertia within the system to ensure good speed stability. So a light-weight platter needs a powerful motor drive system, or multiple small motors. Conversely, a high mass platter system can use a less powerful motor if implemented properly, or take my approach (at least design-wise): medium mass platters (7-10 lbs.) and powerful motors (I like the big 27 watt AC induction types), or 3 typical Airpax motors or similar. This was what I had intended to do to my Heybrook TT2 before selling it, which is a similar idea to the AudioNote TT2 (essentially a Systemdek IIX, with 2 motors, while the TT1 is essentially a IIX).
Years ago UHF magazine (Canada) did a (not very sophisticated) test of turntable isolation. Guess what tt was tops out of the following:
- LP12
- Systemdek IIX
- Audiomeca
- Roksan Xerxes
Jeff, earthquakes are possible in your local, I'd plan for the big one and put your table on something....
3 motors is good idea . Some German guys I see use leader tape as a belt .
There was a British turntable called the Void which had 3 motors ( ? ) . Nothing on the net about it . These guys below I am fairly certain use two . Nice company and he will do work for others I suspect . His bearing is very special although looks simple enough .
Claro Audio | Hi Fi Turntables Bespoke Turntables Tone Arms Leeds Yorkshire Claro Audio
There was a British turntable called the Void which had 3 motors ( ? ) . Nothing on the net about it . These guys below I am fairly certain use two . Nice company and he will do work for others I suspect . His bearing is very special although looks simple enough .
Claro Audio | Hi Fi Turntables Bespoke Turntables Tone Arms Leeds Yorkshire Claro Audio
inertia and levitation
AVWERK: sorry, though you were referring to a light weight turntable of any sort being levitated, and I was suggesting that it could be difficult because to maintain good speed stability, either a higher mass platter or much larger motor(s) must be used (or both). To levitate these additional weights is not a trivial thing (as I am sure that you know).
nigel pearson: "the Voyd" became the Audionote "TT3 " until they designed their own new TT3 (2009 or 2010?). I see now that they are using 3(!) large-ish induction motors for a drive system. The original one (which was the Voyd ) used 3 smaller motors. I suppose this is due to the fact that the platters have changed (previously metal, aluminium?), with AN opting for a polycarbonate/Lexan/acrylic platter as used on the TT2 and TT1 for the most recent TT3. And as per the fashion now, a skeletal turntable is the result. I still prefer the old school type rectangular plinth of the TT1 and TT2 and the old TT3. I always thought a built Systemdek IIX with three Airpax or similar motors and appropriate controls could be an absolutely killer turntable. I may still have to seek one out, and mount my 219 tonearm on it.
The induction motor I spoke of is 27 W, 3450 RPM (115VAC, 60Hz). It appears more robustly built than the AN one, and is very heavy. I don't think I would try even a single motor of this mass (weighs about 2 lbs.) on a deck that suspends the motor and platter on the same chassis.
I better go back to sleep....
AVWERK: sorry, though you were referring to a light weight turntable of any sort being levitated, and I was suggesting that it could be difficult because to maintain good speed stability, either a higher mass platter or much larger motor(s) must be used (or both). To levitate these additional weights is not a trivial thing (as I am sure that you know).
nigel pearson: "the Voyd" became the Audionote "TT3 " until they designed their own new TT3 (2009 or 2010?). I see now that they are using 3(!) large-ish induction motors for a drive system. The original one (which was the Voyd ) used 3 smaller motors. I suppose this is due to the fact that the platters have changed (previously metal, aluminium?), with AN opting for a polycarbonate/Lexan/acrylic platter as used on the TT2 and TT1 for the most recent TT3. And as per the fashion now, a skeletal turntable is the result. I still prefer the old school type rectangular plinth of the TT1 and TT2 and the old TT3
. I always thought a built Systemdek IIX with three Airpax or similar motors and appropriate controls could be an absolutely killer turntable. I may still have to seek one out, and mount my 219 tonearm on it.The induction motor I spoke of is 27 W, 3450 RPM (115VAC, 60Hz). It appears more robustly built than the AN one, and is very heavy. I don't think I would try even a single motor of this mass (weighs about 2 lbs.) on a deck that suspends the motor and platter on the same chassis.
I better go back to sleep....
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I use a Garrard 301 or 401 . Motor torque is it's thing . With care they are good on rumble . TD124 is a halfway house using both idler and belt . The dynamics of turnables like these is large . I built a special Garrard which measured - 79 dB ( independently measured ) . A world record and beat the Thorens reference by 3db . Transrota at -90dB is the best . There was nothing special about this version except care taken . It was totally as the 401 in concept .
Sorry guys in German
http://www.garrard501.com/aud1005_p0120_Garrard501.pdf
That motor is 230 V 28 W ran at 130 V 52Hz . For 78 the full 240 V used . Built in house , it is a 4 pole induction type ( not synchronous most definitely ) . Price was not my choice if reading it . I am not sure we were even paid for it in the end ? The world record for idler drives and considered not possible by 15 dB .
Sorry guys in German
http://www.garrard501.com/aud1005_p0120_Garrard501.pdf
That motor is 230 V 28 W ran at 130 V 52Hz . For 78 the full 240 V used . Built in house , it is a 4 pole induction type ( not synchronous most definitely ) . Price was not my choice if reading it . I am not sure we were even paid for it in the end ? The world record for idler drives and considered not possible by 15 dB .
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For isolation - it's been many years/decades since US car and truck tires used inner tubes. I recall reading of these large inner tubes being used as part of holographic table isolation (which needs extremely low vibration to make good holograms). Is there currently a (US-based, or at least ships to the US) source for these or something like them?
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