Thanks for the info. Has anyone done any comparisons of the LM833 to the NE5532? I am interested in this because the Marantz CD94 is using the single op-amp NE5534 device.
I have used the LF353 and TL072 line of op-amps in all manner of general research applications to replace the LM741. I ran into some issues with stability with the TL series but not with the LF's. I haven't found them to be very revealing in audio applications, nor do they seem a good device connected to the output of the DAC for reasons of bandwidth.
Because they are FET input types they generally do not have as good noise characteristics as the bipolar inputs. This is not to suggest that these can't work sonically. Has anyone found any issues with stability of the National LME series devices? This seems an obvious competitor to the NE5532 device. I purchased some single op-amp LME4971's but haven't tried them yet.
If you are removing the coupling cap are you planning on using some form of op-amp servo control in a feedback loop to zero the output voltage, or are you reliant upon the input circuits of your preamp to block the DC?
I will rely on my amp's input caps for DC blocking. Hasn't been an issue with my Marantz CD53 of which I removed the output caps 4 years ago.
Good question about the opamps, I'd like to know the answer as well.
My parts arrived today, just 1.5 days to ship from the US to Belgium! I'll start tomorrow with my CD610's supply caps and move on to the rest next week. Should be interesting to compare side by side with my stock CD620! I'm not touching the Opamps yet, first I want to hear how much difference the other mods alone make.
Good question about the opamps, I'd like to know the answer as well.
My parts arrived today, just 1.5 days to ship from the US to Belgium! I'll start tomorrow with my CD610's supply caps and move on to the rest next week. Should be interesting to compare side by side with my stock CD620! I'm not touching the Opamps yet, first I want to hear how much difference the other mods alone make.
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About the input about the caps : how is a Rubycon ZA after the 200 hours ? In relation with a standard BG ?
After the regs à la 78/79xxx, i find a very high esr (old cap around 47 to 200 uF like the Nichicon SE in those old Marantz/Philips cd player are excelent : it's always worse with a good new cap with low esr at the output of such old regs ! You can bias also the output pin (to the gnd pin) with a resistor (around 1k5) to help a little. Rubycon ZL are prefered near the load as local decoupling (1 000 uF e.g. with this one was liked in a TDA1540 CD45).
Of course some exceptions as already said : OSCOn SP for the digital rails, Black Gates...and sure the N and NX range !
I find the old Nichicon VX to be less good !
After the regs à la 78/79xxx, i find a very high esr (old cap around 47 to 200 uF like the Nichicon SE in those old Marantz/Philips cd player are excelent : it's always worse with a good new cap with low esr at the output of such old regs ! You can bias also the output pin (to the gnd pin) with a resistor (around 1k5) to help a little. Rubycon ZL are prefered near the load as local decoupling (1 000 uF e.g. with this one was liked in a TDA1540 CD45).
Of course some exceptions as already said : OSCOn SP for the digital rails, Black Gates...and sure the N and NX range !
I find the old Nichicon VX to be less good !
Guess I made a pretty good choice with Nichicon FW for postreg PSU then. It has a pretty high ESR, twice that of an equivalent Nichicon FG.
I went with Nichicon NS for digital because the specs are similar to Oscons. There was also Nichicon R7 which has even lower ESR and is cheaper but I was afraid it might have too low ESR.
I went with Nichicon NS for digital because the specs are similar to Oscons. There was also Nichicon R7 which has even lower ESR and is cheaper but I was afraid it might have too low ESR.
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I read somewhere there is a close construction between the old line of Nichicon : SE, VX, etc with the new one you talk about. Each new caps is the swap part of each old one with a certain concistency ! And with the old one, their data dive (even worst esr than when they are new, making them usefull just after those old reg instead a serie resistor : some tweakers added between 0.4 ohms to 2 ohms in front of the output of those regs !). The old SE add some aeration in front of the reg before the tda 15xx. Near the dac chip you stay with the very good choice of the long list given some posts above. Try & error is a good way to go: it's time consuming but allow you to make the good choices which can change a little from a player to an other (have tweaked more than 15 old philips & marantz as well... and find all the advises given above to be very good according mi little experience)
for the digital I don't like the Nichicon polymers (but just one :the Polymer LE) but much more the UCC one like the PSA serie (20 m ohms ESR for the 100 uF iirc). Though I prefer the oscon discontinued SP serie ! If no BG ! Not too much experience with the new Rubycons... ( a little but not too much. Find the ZL to be good for the analog stage sometimes ! ).
Just my two cents
for the digital I don't like the Nichicon polymers (but just one :the Polymer LE) but much more the UCC one like the PSA serie (20 m ohms ESR for the 100 uF iirc). Though I prefer the oscon discontinued SP serie ! If no BG ! Not too much experience with the new Rubycons... ( a little but not too much. Find the ZL to be good for the analog stage sometimes ! ).
Just my two cents
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This chip sounds pretty good to my ears... I have one cd player with it : plastic wheel of the player collapse in dust with time... I never found a replacement of the wheel though I have many Philips and Marantz reader blocks ! I open the trap à la Naim
! You should keep it for a later surgeon when your experience will grow a little after the one you are tweaking right now ! And mods with the same advices as above ! Notice it is a simple I2S at the input as all the filters are in the chip... easy to ack it ! Though we have not the datashheet, I believe it's close to the SAA7320 and SAA7323. still 16 bits ! I believe Rob Whatt spoke about this dac chip in the last review of the Hugo TT dac on Six Moon Audioreviews !
What to answer to you about the premium CD player : a part of the pleasure is to learn and putt your fingers into it and have better results. DIY can cost you money but it's a hobby. If you stop right now and buy a SOTA Audial Model S, an AMR CD-777 (CD-77 if you have balls !) or a ECDESIGN one it will be much better and you will save money with time directly buying such a good device off shelf... But there is a space between that where you can improve a pretty inexpensive player with few money with a little help from your friends and have something very better than the old stock one... without climbing to the level of those brand units !
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Yeah I have to say it's a lot of fun! Those players you mentioned are crazy expensive, at least I hope to make my CD player sound like a $1000 one. I've modded a Marantz CD53 a few years ago but I didn't go further than changing the caps and opamps. Now it sounds as "good" as music on my PC (Spotify) through a cheap Behringer USB interface on my headphones. I already like the sound but I'm hoping I can achieve a lot more with all the mods I'm planning to do on my Philips players.
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First step: no mods yet since I was sick but I did a direct comparison of the CD610 and CD620 (one in my amp's aux input, the other in the tuner input) with a CD I own double (Michel Petrucciani - Power of Three). The CD610 sounds slightly harsher and less natural but I wouldn't be able to tell without comparing directly. So I'd say both sound very similar despite the CD610 having a TDA1543 vs the CD620's TDA1541 and the CD610 having no regulators for the opamp's 15V lines in the PSU. The CD610 tries to compensate for this with 470uF decoupling caps near the opamps (CD620 has 100uF decoupling caps). Other than that the internals seems identical (same PCB as well). Opamps are also the same so I will not touch those so I can attribute any improvements to the other mods only.
Should be fun trying to get a noticable improvement of the CD610 over the CD620!
Should be fun trying to get a noticable improvement of the CD610 over the CD620!
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I replaced all power supply caps and replaced the supply resistors and capacitors at decoder, SAA7220 and TDA1543 with inductor + ferrite beads and 100uF Oscon. Did some extensive listening and now the CD610 has a slight edge over the stock CD620. Very hard to tell them apart now. I'm curious how much more it can improve after break-in. So far it's not as much as I had hoped for.
Next mods will be diodes, DEM clock and replacing the ceramic caps at the filter/DAC with 100nF SMD caps closer to the chips. After that I will think about removing the DC blocking caps and putting in better opamps.
Next mods will be diodes, DEM clock and replacing the ceramic caps at the filter/DAC with 100nF SMD caps closer to the chips. After that I will think about removing the DC blocking caps and putting in better opamps.
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Replaced diodes with UF4002, DC blocking caps with 4.7uF 35V Silmic II, supply resistors at opamp with inductor + ferrites, lytic caps near opamp to 470uF Nichicon FW (from original 100uF).
BIG gains were made. All the harshness is gone. With the stock player I couldn't put the volume very loud because of its harshness, now I can put it much louder and it still sounds comfortable.
Now I could use a little more detail and little less boomy bass. I will put in a 22000uF Panasonic TSUP (can't tell which pole is positive and negative though?) and 100nF ceramics closer to the chips but I will have to practice SMD soldering first.
BIG gains were made. All the harshness is gone. With the stock player I couldn't put the volume very loud because of its harshness, now I can put it much louder and it still sounds comfortable.
Now I could use a little more detail and little less boomy bass. I will put in a 22000uF Panasonic TSUP (can't tell which pole is positive and negative though?) and 100nF ceramics closer to the chips but I will have to practice SMD soldering first.
How to improve the sound of one CD player based on TDA1541A, in 10 steps (hierarchical list):
1-tube output stage (the thumb rule: there´s no opamp like no opamp);
2-dedicated power regulators in every chip;
3-NOS mod;
4-recap completely;
5-1uf (or even 2,2uf) at pins 12 & 18 (or a la Arcam: 11, 12 & 18, 19);
6-New clock, with dedicated power suply;
7-DEM mod;
8-good DC blocking output caps;
9-best diodes;
10-add weight to the structure of the CD - especially the metal parts.
And enjoy the sound of your new CD player!
Thanks, but I know that already. I'm working on a TDA1543 player now. Also I may rather give the SAA7220 a separate supply instead of going NOS.
So far I have to say that the CD610 is now slightly better than my stock CD620 but nothing earth-shattering. A lot might improve after break-in?
Dedicated power regs would be my next step when all the basics are done.
Any way to tell which side is positive and which is negative of a TSUP cap? It's not in the datasheet.
So far I have to say that the CD610 is now slightly better than my stock CD620 but nothing earth-shattering. A lot might improve after break-in?
Dedicated power regs would be my next step when all the basics are done.
Any way to tell which side is positive and which is negative of a TSUP cap? It's not in the datasheet.
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Please try for DC output caps the Silmic 2 but two in serie like that : - ++ - or + -- + : a big win in clarity§ You can also keep the green non-polar Nichicon if you have ones in your old Philips/Marantz and benchmark it with the Silmic 2 .
The final capacitance value is divided by 2 when 2 caps are in serie : so with 4.7 / 2 : you have 2.3 uF which would be enough for bass bandwidth I believe !
I find the old non polar Muse Nichicon to be vety better than the new one and worth the benchmark with the Silmic 2 to choose which is best with the player you tweak !
The final capacitance value is divided by 2 when 2 caps are in serie : so with 4.7 / 2 : you have 2.3 uF which would be enough for bass bandwidth I believe !
I find the old non polar Muse Nichicon to be vety better than the new one and worth the benchmark with the Silmic 2 to choose which is best with the player you tweak !
You could also read the John's thread or have a look to attached documents to see how he deals to have a good sound without tubes !
Believe also a shunt reg can be good for the output analog (conversion I/V if not passive and/or buffer) with a shunt reg circuit.
Add also 1.5 K ohms resistor between the output pin and the Adj pin of the 78xxx regs ? Ask before to the pros her, I'm not !
Some inexpensive smd inductance also : you can cut a trace to a power supply pcb traces to the digit chips before its final decoupling cap and solder on it a 47 uH to 100 uH smt coils (less than 1 euro !).
Many things to do but as you said : if you can reach a 1000 euro cd player, it is wise also no to pay 500 euros of tweaks for it ! better to pay less for a good second hand of a 1500 euros player for the same price ! . So DIY is also not always for the sound but for the pleasure to do it.
Believe also a shunt reg can be good for the output analog (conversion I/V if not passive and/or buffer) with a shunt reg circuit.
Add also 1.5 K ohms resistor between the output pin and the Adj pin of the 78xxx regs ? Ask before to the pros her, I'm not !
Some inexpensive smd inductance also : you can cut a trace to a power supply pcb traces to the digit chips before its final decoupling cap and solder on it a 47 uH to 100 uH smt coils (less than 1 euro !).
Many things to do but as you said : if you can reach a 1000 euro cd player, it is wise also no to pay 500 euros of tweaks for it ! better to pay less for a good second hand of a 1500 euros player for the same price !
. So DIY is also not always for the sound but for the pleasure to do it.Thanks for the tips, a few questions though:
1. The original DC blocking cap was a polar one, it's okay to replace with a non-polar?
2. Link to John's thread?
3. I know very little about shunt regs, I've searched a lot about it but can't find a simple one to build on veroboard like LM317 regs which are very easy to make. Any help?
3. I believe I already did the coils like you mentioned? The ones I put in are through-hole coils which are now in place of the supply resistors with a couple ferrite beads. Do you think putting in a separate LM317 reg at each chip supply will make a big difference? (so no separate power supply, only an LM317 in place of each supply resistor)
Sorry for all these questions, I've already gone through this entire thread and most of the CD63 thread and I've searched for dozens of hours by now but there are some things I can't figure out without a little guidance.
1. The original DC blocking cap was a polar one, it's okay to replace with a non-polar?
2. Link to John's thread?
3. I know very little about shunt regs, I've searched a lot about it but can't find a simple one to build on veroboard like LM317 regs which are very easy to make. Any help?
3. I believe I already did the coils like you mentioned? The ones I put in are through-hole coils which are now in place of the supply resistors with a couple ferrite beads. Do you think putting in a separate LM317 reg at each chip supply will make a big difference? (so no separate power supply, only an LM317 in place of each supply resistor)
Sorry for all these questions, I've already gone through this entire thread and most of the CD63 thread and I've searched for dozens of hours by now but there are some things I can't figure out without a little guidance.
A non polar is said to be better; to make a non polar with two polars is better than the same standalone polar cap and it is a known fact with Elna Silmic 2 which was made for Marantz iirc ! Try & error is your friend to experiment : try the 3 ways : an old bipolar green Nichicon Muse you source from an old Philips/Marantz CD player, then one Silmic, then 2 Silmic in serie like I described with the polarities.
Then, try as well a good film cap for speakers : e.g. Amphom alum in oil or an Audyn True copper or a russian MKT (advise here on diyaudio : search mode !).
It's very instructive ! Chose this last cap of a value already present in your speaker filter to use it if not keeped in a player (save money mode: on !) : choose a bypass value (most of the time 0.1 uF in the speaker filter, mostly for the trebles) because cheaper and often high enough for a DC blocking cap of a cd player (not always, some times need some more uF)
John's thread : search for ECDESIGN and TDA1541 ! beginn maybe after 2/3 of the thread (more than 20 revisions around a TDA1541 DAC design)
Shunt regs : a wiki here on DIYAUDIO (wiki section)
Ah ! I had not the courage to read also myself the CD63 thread as I stopped to use cd players for many years (use now digital library with FLAC level 8 compression and DACS).
I believe all the goods advises members gave above are enough...
Then, try as well a good film cap for speakers : e.g. Amphom alum in oil or an Audyn True copper or a russian MKT (advise here on diyaudio : search mode !).
It's very instructive ! Chose this last cap of a value already present in your speaker filter to use it if not keeped in a player (save money mode: on !) : choose a bypass value (most of the time 0.1 uF in the speaker filter, mostly for the trebles) because cheaper and often high enough for a DC blocking cap of a cd player (not always, some times need some more uF)
John's thread : search for ECDESIGN and TDA1541 ! beginn maybe after 2/3 of the thread (more than 20 revisions around a TDA1541 DAC design)
Shunt regs : a wiki here on DIYAUDIO (wiki section)
Ah ! I had not the courage to read also myself the CD63 thread as I stopped to use cd players for many years (use now digital library with FLAC level 8 compression and DACS).
I believe all the goods advises members gave above are enough...
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