Peter Daniel said:
You like to talk personal? OK, we are now in another kind of talk. First, you should read the thread comprising that attack till the end. Second, you are not similar to the man you quoted only in that way you both talking nonsense about me, you also don’t read the posts you are answering to. You in fact sound like you did not read any. You sound like you read what you want to read. You attack the people (namely attack me). Maybe you can find some another attack on me to quote and thus to support your LPF findings?
It IS the true what Joe said and I don’t see a point in claiming that is not the true. And it is me who involves Joe in this crap? And I am the politician? What’s with you? Again, statement above doesn’t have anything with only way to build the proper GC! Please, read it! The only man that talked about the propriety in building GCs, implying at the same moment that a bulk of very prominent GC builders don’t know to do that, was you!
You did not? Am I dreaming? Is this twilight zone? Does this account into the “nuances of your statements and claims”? Do we have two Peter Danielses here? May I ask you to firstly agree with the other Peter Daniels about what you will say before you come together aboard?
As I told you can not consider Peter (analog_sa) is talking that what you are talking. You have missed this point again? Don’t know about the pinkmouse but my impression is that he is principally interested to check more things about this.
Pedja
Pedja said:
Now it seems that you are missing completely my point. Show me where I talked like that.
Pedja said:
I don't think so. Although his setup might be different, the observations were similar.
PS: From the developments in this thread, it seems like you are becoming more personal than me. And only because I said that I don't like LPF? Give me a break, I should be allowed to say that.
As a side note, I'd like to ask you what caps are you using in PS. I know that this is very critical to overall sound. I decided finally on BG N 1000/50 and those caps in the end soften high frequencies a lot, comparing to standard grade BG, not to mention Panasonic FC caps. The highs are laid back to the point that some might not even like it, but the detail is greatly increased. How many other people impressed with buffer and LPF are using those caps in GC? How can we compare our observations at the same level, not even mentioning other variables in our systems?
Peter, I DID!
See here
I also asked you, if you had tried a buffer with the LPF. If you haven't, the whole of this thread is rather pointless.
Believe US, the effect of the buffer and LPF is much more than softening the higher frequencies. And most of us who have tried the buffer/LPF have no axe to grind either.
Buffers
The buffer may be a good idea from many POVs but it's so damn difficult to implement in a purist way. Please, buffer evangelists, do not try to promote simple ECC88 cathode followers, as i per example know very well how they sound. Not in the context of a gaincard but in many other applications. Or they sound bad on their own but great in conjunction with a GC? If someone makes claims using an Allen Wright type of follower, that would be an entirely different issue. In any case such a device will severely limit the perceived dynamics. Of course - horses for courses - Musical Fidelity was marketing for years a similar buffer for use between a cd player and a preamp. Wholly unnecessary it would seem, what with the low PS voltage, junk components and ECC88 follower, but people with midfi systems flocked to buy it as it improved the generally unlistenable cds.
And no, i will not build it and listen as i've built dosens of valve circuits and can very well extrapolate its effect on the GC.
Not that i'd be looking forward to involve more capacitors and another power supply in the chain. What would probably make more sense if one really must have buffering is to build some sort of 'integrated' GC in which the relevant preamplification (DAC or RIAA) is in the same case and the volume control is buffered from the IGC.
The buffer may be a good idea from many POVs but it's so damn difficult to implement in a purist way. Please, buffer evangelists, do not try to promote simple ECC88 cathode followers, as i per example know very well how they sound. Not in the context of a gaincard but in many other applications. Or they sound bad on their own but great in conjunction with a GC? If someone makes claims using an Allen Wright type of follower, that would be an entirely different issue. In any case such a device will severely limit the perceived dynamics. Of course - horses for courses - Musical Fidelity was marketing for years a similar buffer for use between a cd player and a preamp. Wholly unnecessary it would seem, what with the low PS voltage, junk components and ECC88 follower, but people with midfi systems flocked to buy it as it improved the generally unlistenable cds.
And no, i will not build it and listen as i've built dosens of valve circuits and can very well extrapolate its effect on the GC.
Not that i'd be looking forward to involve more capacitors and another power supply in the chain. What would probably make more sense if one really must have buffering is to build some sort of 'integrated' GC in which the relevant preamplification (DAC or RIAA) is in the same case and the volume control is buffered from the IGC.
“While I understand that it may be the advantage in some systems, that are build without proper attention to construction details and parts choice, and it tames the agressivness in trebles (which is caused by that lack of attention), but in properly tuned amp it simply doesn't work and creates less than desired effect.”Peter Daniel said:
Q: In whose amps LPF does work?
His setup includes LPF already.
Sure you are allowed. But no, this doesn’t have anything with that whether you like LPF or not. All this started when you offered an explanation why and when LPF will work. And finished (for now) with the accusation that I’m a politician…
As long as BGs are priced as they are, I’ll not use any 1000u/50 BG. However, since now in regulated supply I need less values, I will try them, these days some Std BG will go in. But no, I’ll not use BGs in unregulated supply.
As about the treble softening… Generally, the sound I have now is more open than before any buffer/lpf efforts. The treble is not softened, it is the opposite. We have many ways to influence the tonal balance of the amps. However my point is that this is not about the tonal balance, but about some not easily attainable parameters as the soundstage and definition.
Pedja
Pedja said:
But it still doesn't imply that I am "The only man that has attained the propriety in building GCs and that a bulk of very prominent GC builders don’t know how to do it properly". It just says that it's system dependant and it depends how those systems are built. And it also depends on parts choices and if you don't make the right choices, your amp will be less than fantastic (I kinda like PeteM expression
). Am I lying or imagining things here. I'm just stating obvious facts. If you feel that this is sort of accusation, be certain it's not. I'm well aware that I'm still suffering from same difficiencies as all your other "prominent GC builders". The perfect amp wasn't built yet and probably never will be (unless it carries Halcro platename).Pedja said:
And that's my other point. Although his setup already includes LPF, his observations were in general similar to mine when I was using such filter in a system that didn't have other filter. So it means that whatever good LPF does, it also creates other problems which cannot pass unnoticed to experienced listeners. Than you face the alternative and have to make choices as what is lesser damage to sonic perfection.
Don't be so upset about politician remarked. I wasn't really serious about it, although it seemed appropriate at the moment. Your site and your posts provide a lot of useful info, which even I enjoy
Pedja said:
I know that there are many ways to improve soundstage and definition, and LPF isn't the only tool. Actually some other methods might be more efficient. That was also another message I tried to pass. Everything matters.
Another side note. It just happens that my partner in GC production dropped by and I presented him with a sample of what filter does. He said that he prefers the amp with a filter (He's also 10 years older than me and probably never listened to "Never Mind The Bollocks"
)His remarks are like that: "There is more body to the sound and the sound is more pleasing. The depth is increased and and soundstage is shifted lower. This provides for more realistic presentation (especially with piano) and will satisfy majority of average listeners, especially those with more bright systems." He said he would like it and he also said that every reviewer would like it. However he also mentioned that there are listeners, who would rather prefer more definition in highs and might make different choices. However, it was only 10 min of listening, so it's hard to draw the "right conclusion".
So I had another listen, this time on different material. I used Burmester sampler as the quality and content is audiophile directed. I must admit that it wasn't that bad as before and indeed on this CD it was more pleasing. I might have had hard choice deciding what's better.
So, I tried again the CD I was using yesterday (it was Dire Straights "On Every Street", as I've been using it for years in subjective assesments, I know it well and it's a good quality recording) and that CD definitely sounds better without filter. BTW, it was the only CD I tried yesterday. With a filter, it's out of focus, highs dissolve in the rest of the sound and it's simply worse, with depth and ambience gone. However, it still seems to be advantageous to use LPF on some other recordings, mostly classical and jazz. It might be a good idea to use it as a switchable device and apply it whenever required.
How'd you like that, buffer and filter evangelists? Am I more politically correct now?
Peter great idea
but while your at it you should probably make a few other items switchable, for a start:1. inverted/non-inverted
2. LM3875/TDA729/OPA627
3. buffer on/off
4. filter on/off/high/very high
4. Filter caps - BG/Panasonic/generic/1000uF/10,000uf
5. FB resistor - 220K/250K/330K/1M
6. bridge - mur860/1 bridge/2 bridge/4 bridge
7. 1 transformer/2 transformer/4 transformer
Now it going to be a bit hard to keep track of settings so, we need a microprocesser and some memory. Now we have to program the optium GC settings for each of our CD and have the GC recognise the CD and automatically configure the GC.
Now a good name would be TPCGC - the politically correct gainclone.
Lots of other fantastic ideas are flooding in but I better stop.
Medication please.
Hi,
Never, ever draw conclusions based on a single record listening test..
1/The recording may be out of phase.
2/ It's probably multimikeded.
Dire Straights were hired by Philips to promote the digital media...
For test material I'd rather use a specially developped test record.
Lacking that, a good scope goes a long way too.
Cheers,
Never, ever draw conclusions based on a single record listening test..
1/The recording may be out of phase.
2/ It's probably multimikeded.
Dire Straights were hired by Philips to promote the digital media...
For test material I'd rather use a specially developped test record.
Lacking that, a good scope goes a long way too.
Cheers,
I am sorry that I have to differ Frank
I use only one CD for reference now;
Title: My Disc
The Sheffield/A2TB Test Disc
By using only one disc is less confusing IMHO
Regards,
Chris
fdegrove said:Hi,
Never, ever draw conclusions based on a single record listening test..
1/The recording may be out of phase.
2/ It's probably multimikeded.
Dire Straights were hired by Philips to promote the digital media...
For test material I'd rather use a specially developped test record.
Lacking that, a good scope goes a long way too.
Cheers,
I use only one CD for reference now;
Title: My Disc
The Sheffield/A2TB Test Disc
By using only one disc is less confusing IMHO
Regards,
Chris
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