Hi All,
This is my first post here. I have been getting back into audio lately and I've always loved building stuff, so I'm thinking of building some speakers. Thank you muchly for any help you can give.
So I currently own a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 9.1s (bought demo for ~200$). My First question is, can I expect to build a speaker (probably 3 way) that will rival and surpass these speakers for roughly the same price (not including the cabinets)? I think I would like to stay with a sealed box, but that is negotiable. This will actually be the second pair I have ever built. I still listen to some sealed, 3way floorstanders I build 17 years ago. They aren't great, but that was before the internet and easy access to helpful people
The second question is about design. The reason I said "not including cabinets" is because I have been planning to build some end-tables for some time and I thought maybe I could build the speakers into them. Actually, it's more like build the endtable onto the speaker. I thought maybe I would do a top mounted tweeter with a fairly low crossover frequency so the high frequencies are nearer to ear level. I also thought I could slightly slope the front face of the end table where the mid-rang would be mounted.
What do you think of a design like this? I see this furniture/speaker has been done with subs, but how about full range speakers? The table will have a top with some inch or so of overhang. Will this kill the performance? I can see the imaging might not be great, but most of my listening is from in the room while I'm doing something else, so I seldom just sit in front of the speakers.
I don't think I will need the entire under table volume, and I'm thinking of two solutions: 1) a space between the top of the speaker and the table top that will act as a shelf. This would also be nice because it would move the mid driver away from the overhanging table top. 2) a space betow the speaker in which I could put a shelf. This would be nice because it would rais the mid driver further off the floor.
I wish I could somehow post a shetch of the design. It''s very rough, but I'm excited.
My third question is about drivers. There are so many, how do you choose? Are the dayton drivers sold at Parts Express good? It's overwhelming. I've been looking at the frequency response charts, but I don't really know what qualities I should be looking for.
Thank you again for any help with any of these questions.
Cheers,
Mark
This is my first post here. I have been getting back into audio lately and I've always loved building stuff, so I'm thinking of building some speakers. Thank you muchly for any help you can give.
So I currently own a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 9.1s (bought demo for ~200$). My First question is, can I expect to build a speaker (probably 3 way) that will rival and surpass these speakers for roughly the same price (not including the cabinets)? I think I would like to stay with a sealed box, but that is negotiable. This will actually be the second pair I have ever built. I still listen to some sealed, 3way floorstanders I build 17 years ago. They aren't great, but that was before the internet and easy access to helpful people
The second question is about design. The reason I said "not including cabinets" is because I have been planning to build some end-tables for some time and I thought maybe I could build the speakers into them. Actually, it's more like build the endtable onto the speaker. I thought maybe I would do a top mounted tweeter with a fairly low crossover frequency so the high frequencies are nearer to ear level. I also thought I could slightly slope the front face of the end table where the mid-rang would be mounted.
What do you think of a design like this? I see this furniture/speaker has been done with subs, but how about full range speakers? The table will have a top with some inch or so of overhang. Will this kill the performance? I can see the imaging might not be great, but most of my listening is from in the room while I'm doing something else, so I seldom just sit in front of the speakers.
I don't think I will need the entire under table volume, and I'm thinking of two solutions: 1) a space between the top of the speaker and the table top that will act as a shelf. This would also be nice because it would move the mid driver away from the overhanging table top. 2) a space betow the speaker in which I could put a shelf. This would be nice because it would rais the mid driver further off the floor.
I wish I could somehow post a shetch of the design. It''s very rough, but I'm excited.
My third question is about drivers. There are so many, how do you choose? Are the dayton drivers sold at Parts Express good? It's overwhelming. I've been looking at the frequency response charts, but I don't really know what qualities I should be looking for.
Thank you again for any help with any of these questions.
Cheers,
Mark
Hi Mark and welcome to the forums.
The end table idea sounds exciting but it might be a little complicated. If you are still at the stage where you have not formed opinions on what kind of drivers you like, you have a long way to go before you build. The best place to start is a two way rather than three way as the XO is less of a problem. You might also want to consider a kit that provides you with the drivers and wiring and you build the cabinet. It may work out that you build a smaller box inside the end table so in essence you are building two cabinets. One for the speaker and the other is the end table to conceal the speaker. Are you planning to use the space under the table for anything?
The end table idea sounds exciting but it might be a little complicated. If you are still at the stage where you have not formed opinions on what kind of drivers you like, you have a long way to go before you build. The best place to start is a two way rather than three way as the XO is less of a problem. You might also want to consider a kit that provides you with the drivers and wiring and you build the cabinet. It may work out that you build a smaller box inside the end table so in essence you are building two cabinets. One for the speaker and the other is the end table to conceal the speaker. Are you planning to use the space under the table for anything?
Hi Cal,
Yeah, I think you are right about the 3way being complicated, but getting a properly tuned port really scares me. Also, I like the sound of my old sealed speakers. I wouldn't think I could get much bass with a non-ported 2way.
I know it's early to start thinking about the cabinet before I've picked out the drivers, but I thought since the cabinet was rather different asking about it would be a good idea. I thought there might be a bunch of people saying it would sound like cr@#$. Well, there may still be.
thank you for your suggestions. I still can't get the image to show up. I was thinking it may be some sort of filter for new members such that you don't get a bunch of vulgar spam.
-mark
Yeah, I think you are right about the 3way being complicated, but getting a properly tuned port really scares me. Also, I like the sound of my old sealed speakers. I wouldn't think I could get much bass with a non-ported 2way.
I know it's early to start thinking about the cabinet before I've picked out the drivers, but I thought since the cabinet was rather different asking about it would be a good idea. I thought there might be a bunch of people saying it would sound like cr@#$. Well, there may still be.
thank you for your suggestions. I still can't get the image to show up. I was thinking it may be some sort of filter for new members such that you don't get a bunch of vulgar spam.
-mark
I think you can get very decent sound out of this if you can get the x-over point down to about 100hz or so. At this freq. your ears have trouble locating the source of the driver, so the woofer sitting down low wont matter much. At this point we are approximating sat/sub systems like used in HT.
If you can only get down to 2-300hz with whatever full range you select that should work for non-critical listening, however you will have more peaks and dips at certain frequencies around the room that would be less pronounced if the speakers were closely spaced together.
I strongly recommend looking at the Jordan 2"?, I dont remember the size but I've heard it plays deep and has good sensitivity. Stay under 3" for the best off axis high frequency response, 4" will get you deeper bass but the speaker will start beaming on the high end.
If you can only get down to 2-300hz with whatever full range you select that should work for non-critical listening, however you will have more peaks and dips at certain frequencies around the room that would be less pronounced if the speakers were closely spaced together.
I strongly recommend looking at the Jordan 2"?, I dont remember the size but I've heard it plays deep and has good sensitivity. Stay under 3" for the best off axis high frequency response, 4" will get you deeper bass but the speaker will start beaming on the high end.
nunayafb,
I assume you mean the crossover between the woofer and the mid driver. Is XO at 100 very doable? Are you suggesting the Jordan 2" for the mid? It goes so hi it seems I would hardly need a tweeter. I don't really do critcal listening, so maybe I can push the XO to 200.
In the current design the mid will also be close to the floor, but angled upward. I was only planning to put the tweeter on top. Another Idea I had was to make a seperate box for the mid and tweeter that would have a nice little cubby hole in the lower section, but could be moved onto the top for when I really want to listen.
What do you think, can the full range be placed low on the front like in the sketch?
-mark
I assume you mean the crossover between the woofer and the mid driver. Is XO at 100 very doable? Are you suggesting the Jordan 2" for the mid? It goes so hi it seems I would hardly need a tweeter. I don't really do critcal listening, so maybe I can push the XO to 200.
In the current design the mid will also be close to the floor, but angled upward. I was only planning to put the tweeter on top. Another Idea I had was to make a seperate box for the mid and tweeter that would have a nice little cubby hole in the lower section, but could be moved onto the top for when I really want to listen.
What do you think, can the full range be placed low on the front like in the sketch?
-mark
here's another question. I've been looking at drivers and I like the looks of these which were recommended by Zaph Audio:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=297-428&DID=7
This driver is rated 100-7,000Hz, but when I look at the response graph:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/297-428g.pdf
it's not clear how they choose these numbers. I would have crossed this over at something like 200Hz. I want to give the mid-range driven a definite job to do and not extend it too much.
So that brings me to another question. I was thining I would just buy the XOs, as opposed to making them. Will it be difficult to find the right range? It seems like with the vast amount of drivers compared to speakers, I should build the speakers around the XOs not the drivers. Is building the XOs a much better alternative.
Lastly, I've seen come dials that allow one to adjust the tweeter and/or mid:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-240
I like the idea of having some adjustment, my amp does not have that. Does this adjust some part on the XO, or is it completely seperate? Do these degrade the sound quality in some way?
-m
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&PartNumber=297-428&DID=7
This driver is rated 100-7,000Hz, but when I look at the response graph:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pdf/297-428g.pdf
it's not clear how they choose these numbers. I would have crossed this over at something like 200Hz. I want to give the mid-range driven a definite job to do and not extend it too much.
So that brings me to another question. I was thining I would just buy the XOs, as opposed to making them. Will it be difficult to find the right range? It seems like with the vast amount of drivers compared to speakers, I should build the speakers around the XOs not the drivers. Is building the XOs a much better alternative.
Lastly, I've seen come dials that allow one to adjust the tweeter and/or mid:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-240
I like the idea of having some adjustment, my amp does not have that. Does this adjust some part on the XO, or is it completely seperate? Do these degrade the sound quality in some way?
-m
Hi Mark,
That's a cool looking design you've got going there. Certainly not your usual speaker!
Seeing your drawing made me think of a couple of designs. One would be the Duevel mentioned in This Thread.
And there have been similar designs going back at least 30 years. In an old mid '60s catalog there is a design like the Duevel but using 4 small oval speakers around the top. Your design is a bit different, but you are doing a more or less "Non-Direct" speaker. Food for thought.
FWIW, the Dayton drivers form Parts Express are very nice. Nice prices, too. And if you look around this forum, you'll see tons of projects based on Danish drivers Peerless/ScanSpeak/Vifa. So much so, this ought to be called the "Danish DIY Corner!"
Let us know what you come up with.
That's a cool looking design you've got going there. Certainly not your usual speaker!
Seeing your drawing made me think of a couple of designs. One would be the Duevel mentioned in This Thread.
And there have been similar designs going back at least 30 years. In an old mid '60s catalog there is a design like the Duevel but using 4 small oval speakers around the top. Your design is a bit different, but you are doing a more or less "Non-Direct" speaker. Food for thought.
FWIW, the Dayton drivers form Parts Express are very nice. Nice prices, too. And if you look around this forum, you'll see tons of projects based on Danish drivers Peerless/ScanSpeak/Vifa. So much so, this ought to be called the "Danish DIY Corner!"
Let us know what you come up with.
hey, those Duevels are pretty neat! BTW, all those swerls on the top of the drawing are supposed to be the Bubinga veneer.
This is something to think about, but I think you're giving my design way too much credit. I wasn't so much going for "non-direct" as I was trying to fit everything in the space between the couch and the hallway
-m
This is something to think about, but I think you're giving my design way too much credit. I wasn't so much going for "non-direct" as I was trying to fit everything in the space between the couch and the hallway
-m
Good question, mostly for drinks and the random book/mag on top. Also, just for looks. If there is an open space between the speaker and the top platform, then it might eventually see some electronics (if we get any).
What do you mean by "omnidirectional" tweeter? I thought tweeters were very directional. Are there special tweeters that aren't? Do people ever use two tweeters faced 90 degrees from each other?
-m
What do you mean by "omnidirectional" tweeter? I thought tweeters were very directional. Are there special tweeters that aren't? Do people ever use two tweeters faced 90 degrees from each other?
-m
This is kinda what i meant. This is just a picture of an end table from google, looks more like a bed side table, but i couldn't find the perfect picture. The woofer enclosure can be downfiring and have perhaps a magazine shelf above it; between woofer enclosure and the top (where the tweeter is). In the picture, you see the tweeter on top, and 1 of 2 woofers on the end table. The other woofer would be on the back side of the enclosure.
Josh
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Josh
if I made the front a mid would the sound suffer terribly?
Also, I'd like to put a woofer on the side and pull the tweeter back. These will be against a couch on th oposite side and a wall in on the back.
I'm not thinking about crossovers and as has been mentioned I might be better off with a 2way. Could I get the same bass extension from a 2tway with two 7 inch woofers as a three way with an 8 or 10 woofer?
thanks
mark
Also, I'd like to put a woofer on the side and pull the tweeter back. These will be against a couch on th oposite side and a wall in on the back.
I'm not thinking about crossovers and as has been mentioned I might be better off with a 2way. Could I get the same bass extension from a 2tway with two 7 inch woofers as a three way with an 8 or 10 woofer?
thanks
mark
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Since this is one of the first projects I would try to stay away from a 3 way, unless the crossover has been done already. When I typed woofer, that can mean anything from midrange to subwoofer. I'd use a proven design, or use wide range woofers and the tweeter is for extra extension. end tables are rather large in volume so you can have a farily large driver in there.
You said that you would be in different parts of the room. I interpret that as being on different sides of the end tables. Therefore bipolar would be great so that you could be on either side of the end tables and still have good reproduction, also the room behind the couch will have music. Perhaps my interpretation of your room and location of endtables is wrong, if they are going to up against a wall (now that I think about it, very likely) bipolar may not be the best option.
Side firing woofers would be great, as long as efficiency is high enough, or you have a seperate amp for the woofers, but keep in mind 3way XO is difficult to do properly. I have to eat lunch, but will look up possible drivers and designs later.
Josh
You said that you would be in different parts of the room. I interpret that as being on different sides of the end tables. Therefore bipolar would be great so that you could be on either side of the end tables and still have good reproduction, also the room behind the couch will have music. Perhaps my interpretation of your room and location of endtables is wrong, if they are going to up against a wall (now that I think about it, very likely) bipolar may not be the best option.
Side firing woofers would be great, as long as efficiency is high enough, or you have a seperate amp for the woofers, but keep in mind 3way XO is difficult to do properly. I have to eat lunch, but will look up possible drivers and designs later.
Josh
Since these are going up against a wall I would recommend considering a general concept like this with an 8" woofer with high extension and any tweeter that can play low enough to match the woofer. The woofer enclosure is of course whatever volume is needed along the back and bottom of the table. The remaining front portion of the table can be used for drawers or shelving, port placement can be any where unobstructed.
Edit: By placing both of the drivers near the wall like this baffle step is effectively eliminated, so you wont have to design a BSC, which could be difficult with the two drivers mounted on different baffles.
Edit: By placing both of the drivers near the wall like this baffle step is effectively eliminated, so you wont have to design a BSC, which could be difficult with the two drivers mounted on different baffles.
Attachments
hi nunayafb, I don't understand some of what you said. I'm going to show my ignorance here, but what is a "baffle step" and what is a BSC? Is the 8" a big advantage over a 7" (or 2 7"s)? What XO frequency do you recommend?
Also, I'm gradually being draw toward 2-way designs, but I would really like the mid/bass to face foward. Does anyone know at what frequency sound becomes significantly directional? I initially intended a 3way such taht I could place the three speakers on sides according to which is most/least directional.
When I look at frequency plots to choose a driver, can I asume that it is safe to XO where the power begins to drop or should it be crossed over well before that?
Also, I'm gradually being draw toward 2-way designs, but I would really like the mid/bass to face foward. Does anyone know at what frequency sound becomes significantly directional? I initially intended a 3way such taht I could place the three speakers on sides according to which is most/least directional.
When I look at frequency plots to choose a driver, can I asume that it is safe to XO where the power begins to drop or should it be crossed over well before that?
Mark,
Taking nunyafb's idea one step further, you could use part of the lower area as suggested for a woofer and then mount a plate amp in there as well. You can then incorporate the two way that he has in the drawing on the top. The drivers on top is really the best idea for dispersion and other characteristics. The two way on top can take over at 100Hz from the woofer This way you can have a very nice sound quality with very few drawbacks.
You can get the TB 8" woofer
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-854
A small plate amp
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-784
something like this 5" mid bass
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-850
and a tweeter
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-804
XO would be a breeze.
This would all fit nicely into the design and offer you something more the the Wharfedales.
Is this within the budget?
BSC: Baffle step compensation. It is part of the XO. It's pupose is to cut off some of the midrange in order to enjoy the bass more. Required for skinny speakers with a narrow baffle. Not so important for flat wide speakers or one's with a separate woofer/plate amp. BSC is often seen on full range units.
Taking nunyafb's idea one step further, you could use part of the lower area as suggested for a woofer and then mount a plate amp in there as well. You can then incorporate the two way that he has in the drawing on the top. The drivers on top is really the best idea for dispersion and other characteristics. The two way on top can take over at 100Hz from the woofer This way you can have a very nice sound quality with very few drawbacks.
You can get the TB 8" woofer
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-854
A small plate amp
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-784
something like this 5" mid bass
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-850
and a tweeter
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=264-804
XO would be a breeze.
This would all fit nicely into the design and offer you something more the the Wharfedales.
Is this within the budget?
BSC: Baffle step compensation. It is part of the XO. It's pupose is to cut off some of the midrange in order to enjoy the bass more. Required for skinny speakers with a narrow baffle. Not so important for flat wide speakers or one's with a separate woofer/plate amp. BSC is often seen on full range units.
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