Kuei Yang Wang said:
Ummm, just how long have you been involved with audio then?.
(Be carefull here as there are members here who have studied audio since before you were born, and probably forgotten more about audio than you have ever learned.)
Logarithmic pots with a tap were intended for loudness that worked at low pot rotation, and faded out as the pot approached mid rotation.
Linear pots with a tap were used in tone control and balance stages, to help ensure no effect at mid rotation.
Eric.
Ok, I said I reply to all these posts in turn, so.....
Jean, you raise interesting observations here.
Regards, Eric / - one ear will do.
Jean, you raise interesting observations here.
jean-paul said:Halo, I really don't want to argue and I usually respect your opinion but in this case I think you don't hit the nail on the head.
Yes, it seems that our dear Halo keeps missing the nail and hitting himself in the head instead.
I did a lot of experiments with all kinds of caps in the past and since I discovered the sonical qualities of BG they are my choice. As even my wife hears the difference there must be a real difference.
Yes, and wives (and GFs too) are quick to say so if they dislike a new sound, and if they do like your new sound, they will show you.
I have tried many sorts of caps too, and yes they all impart individual sounds.
I have not tried any BGs yet, mainly because they are not easily available, and far too costly in the quantities that I would like to use them in - is there a way to get free factory samples ?. - email me so we don't start a stampede.
The normal series are not that special but NX Hi Q really is the best I ever used.
How expensive are the normal ones, and what are their claims for this cap ?.
To me (and others probably) the use of BG is a choice of building a good amp or a very good amp. Very simple isn't it ?
Yup, it will never be any simpler than that. (using known sonically good components - pretty much the first step in new made or mod really).
It is certainly not that I want to hear a difference because I bought them and they were expensive. If they wouldn't sound good I would remove them and use another brand/type.
I can hear a double blind argument coming up - haven't we banished those from this forum yet ?. .
Something else: I recently "overhauled" ( if that's the correct expression ) two old but very good Yamaha T80 tuners that were built in 1984. A type of tuner with a sound quality that is rare today.
Yeah, how come modern things don't sound any good any more ?.
Anyway, any correctly working tuner is usually a reasonably good tuner, and having two examples is a nicely usefull way of doing more defineable and verifiable A/B mods and long term listening testing, on a mass produced item.
Since caps of nearly 20 years old ( some were labeled 1981 )are not to be trusted I changed them for BCcomponents series 37 ( standard industry quality ).
BG is too expensive in this case. Almost 30 pieces. When I wanted to change them in the other tuner I ran out of them so I used series 135 ( LL, 105 degrees and low ESR ) that I had in stock.
Yeah, I hate that.
I left the tuners on for a few hours and listened to both of them.
There was a big difference to my surprise. Before my work they were practically the same in sound. I thought that it was too early for a conclusion so I left them on for another day. The next day there was still a difference. I opened them again and searched for the differences. Then I saw that the one with the worse sound had the switched PSU series caps. Left for the shop and bought the standard series and soldered them in. The differences were gone and both tuners were practically the same.
Did you miss your chance of doing a factory VS modified test ?.
How did the new standard caps sound compared to your memory of the factory sound ?.
Please don't think this is the case with all low ESR types ! I used Elna RJH and Nichicon SXE with good results. Had bad experiences in the past with PR series that made sound very dull too.
I am able to perfectly easily and economicaly obtain these Hitano EXR series caps SMPS caps, and I have found them to sound rather good, but I have also found that they may, or they may not, sit well with other types of cap.
By this I mean that the original caps can sound ok, and changing some caps to modern low esr caps can sort of worsen the (feelgood) sound.
I have also found that doing a blanket change of all caps to the one voltage rating (63V) of one make and model of capacitor (the Hitano caps linked above)to yield a very nicely musical and nicely detailed resultant in all experimental examples so far - with other listeners present too.
The output cap was a 4.7 uF 50 V bipolar which I first didn't change. After the tuners burned in I decided to change the caps for 2 pieces of paralled 2.2 uF Siemens MKT ( 5 mm pitch ). The magic was gone and sound was "metallic" in the high tones.
Yeah, I've found funny results like that too - hence my experiments of doing complete blanket changes of factory electros.
Ime, solid caps of course sound different to EL, and the two can sort of sonically crash/clash, as can EL of differing manufacturer, or different voltage/same manufacturer.
I have also found that the output coupling cap can have a seemingly disproportionate affect/effect, as can more so the input coupling cap to a stage.
So now I ordered BG 4.7 N series and will try them. If they again bring back the magic as I expect they sure will be my default brand for the highest demanding applications.
And why would you do anything else ?.
And how much do these cost for signal and psu sizes ?.
\Jean-Paul- that asks himself what scientific evidence you want if you have a good pair of ears.
Ummmm, none !.
Regards, Eric / - one ear will do.
Quote: >>Something else: I recently "overhauled" ( if that's the correct expression ) two old but very good Yamaha T80 tuners that were built in 1984. A type of tuner with a sound quality that is rare today.<<
I owned T80 and still have C80. Although their built quality is very nice, the sound is simply unacceptable. Luxman T12 tuner and Z502 preamp, from the same time period, sound way better without any mods.
I owned T80 and still have C80. Although their built quality is very nice, the sound is simply unacceptable. Luxman T12 tuner and Z502 preamp, from the same time period, sound way better without any mods.
Hi Peter,
What sort of sound do you prefer on your systems ?.
Regards, Eric.
So you prefer the sound that a BG series signal cap imparts ?.Peter Daniel said:I'm using 1000/50 standard and 4.7u N BG in my gainclone with very positive results. Actually, the one with 4.7 coupling cap sounds better than the one without coupling cap at all. So don't get discouraged before you try for yourself, anybody.
What sort of sound do you prefer on your systems ?.
Regards, Eric.
We all heard comments that gaincard or LM3875 chip sounds thin or has sort of edgeness in some implementation, so I might suspect that combination of BG N cap and that weired Alps pot I'm using at the input, make for more neutral balance. It is possible that BG add coloration, but if it makes for a better end result, I can't complain.
As to the sonics, I don't like distant, thin, or mechanical sound (although my main listening material comes from industrial genre). To quote Herb Reichert, I like "lots of flesh and blood, lots of drama and empathy and lots of Technicolor and Panavision"..., but to a certain extend only.
As to the sonics, I don't like distant, thin, or mechanical sound (although my main listening material comes from industrial genre
). To quote Herb Reichert, I like "lots of flesh and blood, lots of drama and empathy and lots of Technicolor and Panavision"..., but to a certain extend only.
Hi Steve,
Perfectly fine question, and sorry at this time I do not have a definite and detailed answer as to why or how, but I do know that it exists, and is a factor in audio equipment.
There have been various explanations given on the forum here - an old knowlegable NP told me that during wire forming operations, the atoms of the conductor wire whilst returning to their final more relaxed state take up and lock in a conduction characteristic according to the local fields present at that instant in time - gravitational, magnetic and electric fields.
Solder joints exhibit this behaviour too, and I find that this is confirmed in my experience/experiments.
Magnetising processes also lock in a signature.
Ever noticed how an old quality made British made pair of pliers feels different to say, the US equivalent ?.
Ever noticed how Danish made drivers have a fundamentally different charcter to a very similar but elsewhere made driver.
Ever noticed how US, European or Asian made machines have their particular fundamental sounds that are not in accordance to things like differing caps or resistors etc ?.
This is not voodoo, and if you have a dowsing sense, you should be understanding of what I mean.
Eric / - Sensitive New Age Audiophile.
Steve Eddy said:
Perfectly fine question, and sorry at this time I do not have a definite and detailed answer as to why or how, but I do know that it exists, and is a factor in audio equipment.
There have been various explanations given on the forum here - an old knowlegable NP told me that during wire forming operations, the atoms of the conductor wire whilst returning to their final more relaxed state take up and lock in a conduction characteristic according to the local fields present at that instant in time - gravitational, magnetic and electric fields.
Solder joints exhibit this behaviour too, and I find that this is confirmed in my experience/experiments.
Magnetising processes also lock in a signature.
Ever noticed how an old quality made British made pair of pliers feels different to say, the US equivalent ?.
Ever noticed how Danish made drivers have a fundamentally different charcter to a very similar but elsewhere made driver.
Ever noticed how US, European or Asian made machines have their particular fundamental sounds that are not in accordance to things like differing caps or resistors etc ?.
This is not voodoo, and if you have a dowsing sense, you should be understanding of what I mean.
Eric / - Sensitive New Age Audiophile.
Hi Peter,
Peter Daniel said:We all heard comments that gaincard or LM3875 chip sounds thin or has sort of edgeness in some implementation, so I might suspect that combination of BG N cap and that weired Alps pot I'm using at the input, make for more neutral balance. It is possible that BG add coloration, but if it makes for a better end result, I can't complain.
As to the sonics, I don't like distant, thin, or mechanical sound (although my main listening material comes from industrial genre
Hi Peter,
Regards, Eric.
Peter Daniel said:We all heard comments that gaincard or LM3875 chip sounds thin or has sort of edgeness in some implementation, so I might suspect that combination of BG N cap and that weired Alps pot I'm using at the input, make for more neutral balance. It is possible that BG add coloration, but if it makes for a better end result, I can't complain.
"Don't worry...., just beee happy...."
As to the sonics, I don't like distant, thin, or mechanical sound (although my main listening material comes from industrial genre
I play just about any recordings at home, at work and GF's place, and all my systems are different, in addition to customers' gear going over the bench, so I get to hear a wide range of sounds.
I can live with a bit of colour, or expression (compression ?), even a bit of thd, but I don't tolerate imd, or excessive thd.
I also don't tolerate well resonances, electrical or mechanical, more particularly mids and highs resonances, and the system must sound 'grounded' but free and live at the same time.
The springs do this well - have you tried them yet ? - nag, nag.
Distant, thin and/or mechanical sounds drive me out of the room too, quick smart.
By definition, a perfect system would imply one that it is perfectly musical, but for now I'm happy with pretty bloody good/clean, and fantastically 'perfect pitch' musical - that's when the party happens.
When I catch myself tapping my heels, I know it's good.
Regards, Eric.
Re: Hi Steve,
Well, you don't really know anything beyond your own subjective experience. Unfortunately, our subjective experiences don't necessarily establish any particular physical reality and it's the actual physical reality I'm interested in. If subjective experience established actual physical realities, then there would have to be some physical connection between our audio systems and placing photographs of ourselves in the freezer, as some have reported.
But the explanations I've seen so far (including this one) don't even pass the giggle test. If the above were true, then any given length of copper wire would have to be both an electret and a magnet. Neither of which is the case.
And again, our subjective experences do not necessarily confirm any particular physical reality.
What magnetizing processes? Copper doesn't magnetize by the way. It's paramagnetic.
You mean in the same way that a lefthanded metric crescent wrench feels different than a righthanded standard crescent wrench?
Didn't say it was voodoo. Though it may possibly be nothing more than psychology. Was simply trying to get at some underlying physics, even if only theoretical. I've no interest in trying to prove or disprove anyone's subjective perceptions.
se
mrfeedback said:
Well, you don't really know anything beyond your own subjective experience. Unfortunately, our subjective experiences don't necessarily establish any particular physical reality and it's the actual physical reality I'm interested in. If subjective experience established actual physical realities, then there would have to be some physical connection between our audio systems and placing photographs of ourselves in the freezer, as some have reported.
But the explanations I've seen so far (including this one) don't even pass the giggle test. If the above were true, then any given length of copper wire would have to be both an electret and a magnet. Neither of which is the case.
And again, our subjective experences do not necessarily confirm any particular physical reality.
What magnetizing processes? Copper doesn't magnetize by the way. It's paramagnetic.
You mean in the same way that a lefthanded metric crescent wrench feels different than a righthanded standard crescent wrench?
Didn't say it was voodoo. Though it may possibly be nothing more than psychology. Was simply trying to get at some underlying physics, even if only theoretical. I've no interest in trying to prove or disprove anyone's subjective perceptions.
se
Re: Hi Peter,
I also don't like too much coloration. At certain moments, when everything is right in the system, I just feel the emotional state of the performers and it is true, that although recorded sound is just recorded sound, but at one time or another you just can't stop yourself from tapping your heels. The perfect pitch is very important.
I like the detail, resolution and 3-dimentionality, I like the "be there" feeling. The music has to draw my attention and has to be natural and never boring.
mrfeedback said:
I also don't like too much coloration. At certain moments, when everything is right in the system, I just feel the emotional state of the performers and it is true, that although recorded sound is just recorded sound, but at one time or another you just can't stop yourself from tapping your heels. The perfect pitch is very important.
I like the detail, resolution and 3-dimentionality, I like the "be there" feeling. The music has to draw my attention and has to be natural and never boring.
You must have had a bad example Peter, because it outperforms a lot of newer and more expensive tuners
Don't know about the C80, never heard one. Probably typical '80's design. The tuner is an example of how one should be built. Only power supply is meager though and if modernized sound will be a lot better with a firm bass. I don't have a schematic because Yamaha doesn't have it anymore because of the age of the tuner. Do you have it maybe ?
I recently modded a T85 and that one was misadjusted so there is a possibility that....
They still cost around 140 Euro's here and people are searching for them. I have to admit you have to mod them for good results.Very musical and relaxed sound after the mods.
Eric, I wanted to quote your post but it didn't work out for some reason. The bold fonts disappeared !?!
I did do a factory vs modded comparison and the modded was a lot better ( that's good otherwise it would have been a waste of time and money )
The BG NX HiQ are slightly less than 3 euro's when you buy cleverly. Some shops sell them for 5.50 Euro's ! The 4.7 uF 50 V N series is about the same price. I haven't heard the N series yet because I'm still awaiting their delivery.
Jelmax doesn't have a sample program for obvious reasons. I wanted to start to import them myself and even then they didn't want to send samples.
I did do a factory vs modded comparison and the modded was a lot better ( that's good otherwise it would have been a waste of time and money
)The BG NX HiQ are slightly less than 3 euro's when you buy cleverly. Some shops sell them for 5.50 Euro's ! The 4.7 uF 50 V N series is about the same price. I haven't heard the N series yet because I'm still awaiting their delivery.
Jelmax doesn't have a sample program for obvious reasons. I wanted to start to import them myself and even then they didn't want to send samples.
Steve Eddy said:
Hi,
How about this for an example of "physical reality"?
I regret that I don't presently know how to automatically set up a 'referral', and the FAQ section doesn't seem to cover this.
However, please look at my post #135 in the thread 'resistor comparison test - tantalum?'
Regards,
So Just Which Reality Are You On, Steve ?.
Regards, Eric.
Steve Eddy said:
Well, you don't really know anything beyond your own subjective experience. Unfortunately, our subjective experiences don't necessarily establish any particular physical reality and it's the actual physical reality I'm interested in.
You are interested in physical reality ? - I'm already in it.
Also subjective opinions stem from actual physical realities.
If subjective experience established actual physical realities, then there would have to be some physical connection between our audio systems and placing photographs of ourselves in the freezer, as some have reported.
This is imo flawed information from someone who I consider to be unbalanced - I think Mr Belt is a nutter, or a comedian, but more to him if other idiots are willing to pay perfectly good money to him for belief systems.
But the explanations I've seen so far (including this one) don't even pass the giggle test. If the above were true, then any given length of copper wire would have to be both an electret and a magnet. Neither of which is the case.
And again, our subjective experences do not necessarily confirm any particular physical reality.
Maybe they are - as I understand it, all elements have some magnetic moment - correct me if I am wrong.
Anyway, careful experimenting revealed to me the conductor directional characteristic, and this was 10 years ago and despite the still now same arguments that it cannot be possible.
When I met the mentioned NP, I had the opportunity to pose a whole bunch of questions based on seemingly to me strange findings of my experimentation, and he repeatedly gave the answer of, "Yes, expect it !", and then go on to explain in overview how.
I learned a lot about a lot of things that day, and not the least of which was that my findings were correct, and that my subjective findings were true, and not products of my imagination.
What magnetizing processes? Copper doesn't magnetize by the way. It's paramagnetic.
And ferrite and neodymium etc are not - I was talking about speaker magnets dummy.
You mean in the same way that a lefthanded metric crescent wrench feels different than a righthanded standard crescent wrench?
No, I mean how different materials feel different.
If you do not have this sense, then you may as well just give up now, and take up gardening, or woodturning, or playing bridge or something.
Didn't say it was voodoo. Though it may possibly be nothing more than psychology. Was simply trying to get at some underlying physics, even if only theoretical. I've no interest in trying to prove or disprove anyone's subjective perceptions.
Nuh, psychology does not enter into diffrentiation of subtle changes, but it is probably the prime factor in the subjective enjoyment of any sytem by any particular person.
As I see it, when I am able to establish a concrete subjective correlation, I expect that there is a concrete physics explanation - even if I do not have it yet.
Regards, Eric.
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