its getting desolate in here, lets hope this economic slowdown passes so people start building subwoofers again....
in other news im about to order a pair of selenium 18s for the first set of bins, tops are next on the list. thinking of some speakersplans.com MT102s, cause i dont wanna have to build kick bins too.
in other news im about to order a pair of selenium 18s for the first set of bins, tops are next on the list. thinking of some speakersplans.com MT102s, cause i dont wanna have to build kick bins too.
Check out Rog's MT122's too, they've a little bigger but go a little lower...
Screamer's CTH1524 cut in half (CTH1212?) makes quite a nice 200lt box for 12" drivers:
2pi, Eminence 4012 in black, Ciare 12SW in grey, I'm tempted to build this...
I have 4012's already, but would I be able to switch them out for 12SW's later on?
Screamer's CTH1524 cut in half (CTH1212?) makes quite a nice 200lt box for 12" drivers:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
2pi, Eminence 4012 in black, Ciare 12SW in grey, I'm tempted to build this...
I have 4012's already, but would I be able to switch them out for 12SW's later on?
The woofer tester is available in germany, maybe I can help you out, PN me...
Other possibilities:
look up "arta" which is a measurement software capable of doing almost everything neede in very high quality... On the website there are several tipps&tricks how to build a small connector-box which can then handle Impedanz measurements etc.... A demo version of arta can do most of the stuff of the full version, it should work.
The most important thing is a calibrated mic... woofertester uses a very cheap one and doesn´t care much about high precision. To observe a general behaviour it´s enough. You could buy a behringer ECM 8000 or similar cheap mic, use a mic-preamp you build yourself or already available in a pro-mixer and do some sweeps with the demo af arta.
The probably cheapest one is the panasonic diy-mic for a few euros... look up "messmikrofon" on german ebay, the specs are presented there, some guy always sells the mic-thingi in a aluminium duct for a few euros...
a nice pre-amp is the monacor MPA-102, but you can also built one yourself for a few bucks, I can´t finde the link right now...
another one: Hobbybox is available with a nice little mic for not too much money in the old version 4.0.. this works quite good, too.
Don´t trust measurements below 100Hz too much unless you´re using a very good calibrated system. Many mics do perform very good in the region of 1kHz, the variances do mostly occur at the low and high-end... So unless you had your setup calibrated, a "funny looking" response just could be the result of a non-flat response from mic-preamp and microfone. I always experience this when I switch from calibrated Earthworks MB30 to non calibrated "other measurement mics (even 400 EUro ones)" and do measurements on subwoofers down to 20 Hz...
Speaker workshop is another software which might work for you, it´s free
room-eq-wizard can do bass-measurements, too. it´s free also
if you get your hand on a used DAAS3L - go get it..
there are several more, but my brain is too slow right now, have to do taxes, the others won´t come to mind
Other possibilities:
look up "arta" which is a measurement software capable of doing almost everything neede in very high quality... On the website there are several tipps&tricks how to build a small connector-box which can then handle Impedanz measurements etc.... A demo version of arta can do most of the stuff of the full version, it should work.
The most important thing is a calibrated mic... woofertester uses a very cheap one and doesn´t care much about high precision. To observe a general behaviour it´s enough. You could buy a behringer ECM 8000 or similar cheap mic, use a mic-preamp you build yourself or already available in a pro-mixer and do some sweeps with the demo af arta.
The probably cheapest one is the panasonic diy-mic for a few euros... look up "messmikrofon" on german ebay, the specs are presented there, some guy always sells the mic-thingi in a aluminium duct for a few euros...
a nice pre-amp is the monacor MPA-102, but you can also built one yourself for a few bucks, I can´t finde the link right now...
another one: Hobbybox is available with a nice little mic for not too much money in the old version 4.0.. this works quite good, too.
Don´t trust measurements below 100Hz too much unless you´re using a very good calibrated system. Many mics do perform very good in the region of 1kHz, the variances do mostly occur at the low and high-end... So unless you had your setup calibrated, a "funny looking" response just could be the result of a non-flat response from mic-preamp and microfone. I always experience this when I switch from calibrated Earthworks MB30 to non calibrated "other measurement mics (even 400 EUro ones)" and do measurements on subwoofers down to 20 Hz...
Speaker workshop is another software which might work for you, it´s free
room-eq-wizard can do bass-measurements, too. it´s free also
if you get your hand on a used DAAS3L - go get it..
there are several more, but my brain is too slow right now, have to do taxes, the others won´t come to mind
Thanks, the ARTA software looks ideal and it even has a feature for measuring TS parameters...
Just looked up the price of the Earthworks MB30
I already have an ECM 8000 so I think I'll have a go using that.
I don't really have a pre-amp but I have a 4 channel mixer which has phantom power so I'll give it a go with that. I guess a proper pre-amp would be better so I'll keep an eye out for one, and I think I may even have a soundcard with onboard pre-amps somewhere which should be better than running the signal thru a mixer.
Just looked up the price of the Earthworks MB30
I already have an ECM 8000 so I think I'll have a go using that. I don't really have a pre-amp but I have a 4 channel mixer which has phantom power so I'll give it a go with that. I guess a proper pre-amp would be better so I'll keep an eye out for one, and I think I may even have a soundcard with onboard pre-amps somewhere which should be better than running the signal thru a mixer.
FlipC said:
I haven't even considered directivity yet. I'm still trying to figure out how to model a dual 12" with two pathlengths, with the idea being that so doing will help to tame response peaks in the 80-120 Hz range. This would increase the bandwidth of the standard TH design. I'm encouraged because, although I had considered this on my own, apparently Danley's new uber-subs use this approach.
I'm also trying to figure a way to differentially shift the low-end impedance peaks to help control excursion. I think this can be achieved electronically, although I'm uncertain about how this will affect low-end output. It will certainly increase max output though, which is what we're all really after here.
Just thinking about how inadequate the 4015/3015 4012 etc drivers are for TH design.
Looking a JBells 3015 which is 483 Lt.
I then compare it to the TH Mini clone I did. Yes the 3015 hits lower as it is a 40 Hz sub while the Mini is a 50 Hz sub but the Mini is 102 Lt!
So if we factor in space required you can get 4 Minis for the space of 1 3015. So per footprint the Minis outperform.
Of course the $ factor comes into play.
Which the 3015 wins due to driver cost.
My point is maybe we should ask/harass Eminence
to build a 12" driver that is designed for TH's ? A TH version of the Lab 12? So TH12 ...or a whole TH series. 8",10",12",15" ?
Looking a JBells 3015 which is 483 Lt.
I then compare it to the TH Mini clone I did. Yes the 3015 hits lower as it is a 40 Hz sub while the Mini is a 50 Hz sub but the Mini is 102 Lt!
So if we factor in space required you can get 4 Minis for the space of 1 3015. So per footprint the Minis outperform.
Of course the $ factor comes into play.
Which the 3015 wins due to driver cost.
My point is maybe we should ask/harass Eminence
to build a 12" driver that is designed for TH's ? A TH version of the Lab 12? So TH12 ...or a whole TH series. 8",10",12",15" ?
freddi said:
I would pick 12" (since you can scale either up or down the size of enclosure from a very small one to a true uber-sub). In fact, I'd probably make its parameters match pretty close to the Ciare 12.00 SW (e.g. high xmax, high BL, relatively hi Fs, and hi pmax). And do it for less that $150/driver. The Ciare is a great driver for smaller or dual TH alignments, but it's over the top expensive at $300/driver. The Ciare has gobs of power handling. I'd argue too much for this application, so Eminence could keep costs down by shooting for 500-600W RMS power handling.
Alternatively, Eminence could tweak the HL10C. If you put a quad of those in a 200-300L TH box, you can get pretty strong output and efficiency, but you have two problems. First, you exceed the power rating before hitting xmax (usually, the situation is reversed). Second, the 4 ohm rating makes a quad a tricky load to drive (unless you do the 2P x 2S approach). I'd say they increase the RMS power handling out to around 500W, increase BL out to 20-25, and do it in an 8 ohm package (giving a reasonable 2 ohm load into a quad configuration). Oh, and it'd be great if this was around $100-130/driver. This would be a real strong TH performer.
I agree with Craig.
Though the Ciare isn't the only choice there.
You first have the B&C 12PS100 which is in the TH Mini (for now)
You have the new Faitalpro 12HP1020 which is used in the TH212 and 812. Which seems like it was designed for TH's and works great in a 212 configuration.
I would like the high power handling
because it becomes a safety factor. All those drivers are imported and cost more due to that. If Eminence made a clone and kept it 700-1000w RMS that would be good. I wonder why Danley didn't get them to make some OEM drivers? The B&C (and Ciare) are Italian made so they couldn't have been that cheap in bulk. The Faitalpro on the other hand is Mexican so he might get those dirt cheap.
I have been working on a dual 12".
Still in the layout process. Not so easy. I choose the Eminence Lab12 Generation II driver because I can get it 50 bucks cheaper than a 12PS100 and less than half of the 12HP1020. Peeky but loud!
Though the Ciare isn't the only choice there.
You first have the B&C 12PS100 which is in the TH Mini (for now)
You have the new Faitalpro 12HP1020 which is used in the TH212 and 812. Which seems like it was designed for TH's and works great in a 212 configuration.
I would like the high power handling
because it becomes a safety factor. All those drivers are imported and cost more due to that. If Eminence made a clone and kept it 700-1000w RMS that would be good. I wonder why Danley didn't get them to make some OEM drivers? The B&C (and Ciare) are Italian made so they couldn't have been that cheap in bulk. The Faitalpro on the other hand is Mexican so he might get those dirt cheap.
I have been working on a dual 12".
Still in the layout process. Not so easy. I choose the Eminence Lab12 Generation II driver because I can get it 50 bucks cheaper than a 12PS100 and less than half of the 12HP1020. Peeky but loud!
"The Faitalpro on the other hand is Mexican "
http://www.faitalpro.com/
In October I was discussing this with Anthony Lucas (a senior lab technician) at Eminence. I have purchased as an OEM previously, so they are willing to talk with me.
My targets were an Fs in the 55hz~60hz range, with a Qes around 0.35, and power of 500W/1KW(peak), 10mm x-max, as much x-mech as possible.
It looks like a Lab 12 frame with a 3" coil and dual spiders would be best. If there is sufficient interest I could pursue this further.
http://www.faitalpro.com/
In October I was discussing this with Anthony Lucas (a senior lab technician) at Eminence. I have purchased as an OEM previously, so they are willing to talk with me.
My targets were an Fs in the 55hz~60hz range, with a Qes around 0.35, and power of 500W/1KW(peak), 10mm x-max, as much x-mech as possible.
It looks like a Lab 12 frame with a 3" coil and dual spiders would be best. If there is sufficient interest I could pursue this further.
If it comes to "a TH driver", I´d also could talk to Anthony, we´ve always had nice talks over the last few years. The more people tell him it`s a good idea, the better.
If we´d go for a new driver, I´d throw some "wishes" in:
- water protected cone (like definimax) with some coating
- demodulation rings (like definimax)
- high xmax of course
- very rugged cone for horn loading, high mass doesn´t hurt
For very high power handling, a ferrit magnet probably would be the way to go right now at Eminence. I love neodym, but Anthony just told me a few weeks ago that the "bigger" thermal power handlings just need a lot more engineering to be done at Eminence, right now they are stuck at about 500/1000Watts heat dissipation capacity... In order to get enough power handling with a at least 10mm xmax driver, more power handling would be nice, especially with prosound.
The 3015LF is a very nice driver, but compared to some BMS or B&C it´s limited in thermal power handling which leads to quite a lot powercompression. If we´d go for a high-SPL Driver, this point definitley shouldnt be a compromise in my oppinion.
Of course, if Eminence would add something like the heatsink from the kilomax series, we still might get neodym
The suspension could be less progressive than with conventional drivers and the glue between gascet and magnet should be more rugged, I´ve had a few 3015LF which lost the magnet in THs when driven hard "on the road".
If we´d go for a new driver, I´d throw some "wishes" in:
- water protected cone (like definimax) with some coating
- demodulation rings (like definimax)
- high xmax of course
- very rugged cone for horn loading, high mass doesn´t hurt
For very high power handling, a ferrit magnet probably would be the way to go right now at Eminence. I love neodym, but Anthony just told me a few weeks ago that the "bigger" thermal power handlings just need a lot more engineering to be done at Eminence, right now they are stuck at about 500/1000Watts heat dissipation capacity... In order to get enough power handling with a at least 10mm xmax driver, more power handling would be nice, especially with prosound.
The 3015LF is a very nice driver, but compared to some BMS or B&C it´s limited in thermal power handling which leads to quite a lot powercompression. If we´d go for a high-SPL Driver, this point definitley shouldnt be a compromise in my oppinion.
Of course, if Eminence would add something like the heatsink from the kilomax series, we still might get neodym
The suspension could be less progressive than with conventional drivers and the glue between gascet and magnet should be more rugged, I´ve had a few 3015LF which lost the magnet in THs when driven hard "on the road".
FlipC said:
I have tested the B&C driver in HR and it doesn't look as good as the Ciare in my sims. But, maybe it's a consequence of my design goals. I'd like to build a small single or dual 12" TH that will hit F3 in the low 30's. I'm a bass-player and would really like to be able to have reasonable output of the B string fundamental (31Hz) on my 5-string. Plus, I think "sub-woofer" really refers to boxes that can hit the low 20's; the low 30's is as much as I'm willing to compromise in order to maximize output. Higher frequency response anomalies that I can't tame with modest L12 or L34 tweaks (or added inductance) are not as big a concern of mine as is the low freq cutoff. I'm also shooting for around 130 dB max output (at xmax) in 1/2 space,
While I'd love to use the Lab12's, it seems that their BL and Fs are just too low for them to give strong output.
I'll check out the 12HP1020 though. Sounds interesting.
Craig -
The 12PS100 is for a 40/50 Hz cabinet. My TH Mini clones are 106 Lt at are 126 Db 50-200 Hz. They could be a bit louder if I used more compression but went for easier build. I will put some pics up tomorrow.
What is the max size your looking at?
And you want the cut off to be 30Hz? Is that the -3 or -10 or what?
Djk
Like the idea for the driver.
The 12PS100 is for a 40/50 Hz cabinet. My TH Mini clones are 106 Lt at are 126 Db 50-200 Hz. They could be a bit louder if I used more compression but went for easier build. I will put some pics up tomorrow.
What is the max size your looking at?
And you want the cut off to be 30Hz? Is that the -3 or -10 or what?
Djk
Like the idea for the driver.