I can accept the possibility of changing the polarity of a wound film cap effecting the signal as it's construction is asymetrical (one foil on the outside, one not), on the other hand a resistor may have no such asymetry and without a logical explaination I am hesitant to accept the assertion that it makes a difference.
Different brands of capacitors are constructed differently, again a measureable difference is the result and this may translate to an audio difference.
This does not mean that I can hear the difference, but I am open to the possibility that others may be able to hear the difference that I can not hear.
That said, there is still a lot of snake oil being peddled.
Different brands of capacitors are constructed differently, again a measureable difference is the result and this may translate to an audio difference.
This does not mean that I can hear the difference, but I am open to the possibility that others may be able to hear the difference that I can not hear.
That said, there is still a lot of snake oil being peddled.
Perfect, love the thinking here!
I am truly appreciative for the thinking here.
"a.wayne
you get the idea. These were the last ones i used ..... real power , real tubes, very good sonics..."
Yeah, even though I am not going to go for massive power (net needed) the thought is absorbed and consideration to necessary is weighing. Maybe 4 6146's in parallel hard driven ......
"dgta:
the speakers make AT LEAST..........."
Absolutely! and the position of them, and the interference in front of them and ......
"rknize:
After speakers, the topology"
Perfect room and topology but the mood of the day too! A Head cold seems to interfere with hearing as well.... hmmmmm
"mp9:
electrical matching of impedance....NOS Westrex 300B and New Production Westrex 300B......there was a audible difference....."
Yes, I have also heard this test done with a a pair of 6L6GB P-P amp, and yep there is a sound variation, funny there was a sound difference even with different pairs of NOS groups. Tube age is also part of the sound, "breakin, sweeten up, sweet period, diminished output, distortion, failure"
"Planet10:
Execution and all the other details of the amp are really more important than the output tube.....Having a really nice room doesn't hurt."
You have hit on part of the aspect in experimentation here, and without opening this can of worms Ill just say, it is either more or it less sonically how the input stages impact the sound. I will explain later in more detail, as I post the build, and this is why I was hoping to narrow this to a preference thing only referring to the output glass hot things. Changing an input coupling capacitor from one brand to another can and probably will impact the sound quality in either a good or a bad way. I have done this and know that each and every physical part in the build is critical in one or another fashion. Lot runs of capacitors, resistors, inductors, and so on also will have notable impacts on sound quality. Wire used and wire location as well, all factors. Just how clean is that supply? Yes I hear you and is part of what is going to make this a "FUN" project.
"andyjevans:
If you have 71A you are on your way to an all-DHT input section...."
Yup...... That is a maybe and maybe not! *ponders...rethinks*
Thank you gentlemen, and I appreciate this. I am aware of every little thing that may come along and bounce into the sound waves before I get to perceive, and so many possible variations before and after the output tubes in creating a quality sound, all important each one. but was hoping to focus on the tube for now. The listening room though not perfect (far from) is fine and the speakers are not an issue and the system driving them is not an issue either, and is not so much replacing speakers, but more of applying my background and experience to see what I can come up with.
ONWARD!
Tim
I am truly appreciative for the thinking here.
"a.wayne
you get the idea. These were the last ones i used ..... real power , real tubes, very good sonics..."
Yeah, even though I am not going to go for massive power (net needed) the thought is absorbed and consideration to necessary is weighing. Maybe 4 6146's in parallel hard driven ......
"dgta:
the speakers make AT LEAST..........."
Absolutely! and the position of them, and the interference in front of them and ......
"rknize:
After speakers, the topology"
Perfect room and topology but the mood of the day too! A Head cold seems to interfere with hearing as well.... hmmmmm
"mp9:
electrical matching of impedance....NOS Westrex 300B and New Production Westrex 300B......there was a audible difference....."
Yes, I have also heard this test done with a a pair of 6L6GB P-P amp, and yep there is a sound variation, funny there was a sound difference even with different pairs of NOS groups. Tube age is also part of the sound, "breakin, sweeten up, sweet period, diminished output, distortion, failure"
"Planet10:
Execution and all the other details of the amp are really more important than the output tube.....Having a really nice room doesn't hurt."
You have hit on part of the aspect in experimentation here, and without opening this can of worms Ill just say, it is either more or it less sonically how the input stages impact the sound. I will explain later in more detail, as I post the build, and this is why I was hoping to narrow this to a preference thing only referring to the output glass hot things. Changing an input coupling capacitor from one brand to another can and probably will impact the sound quality in either a good or a bad way. I have done this and know that each and every physical part in the build is critical in one or another fashion. Lot runs of capacitors, resistors, inductors, and so on also will have notable impacts on sound quality. Wire used and wire location as well, all factors. Just how clean is that supply? Yes I hear you and is part of what is going to make this a "FUN" project.
"andyjevans:
If you have 71A you are on your way to an all-DHT input section...."
Yup...... That is a maybe and maybe not! *ponders...rethinks*
Thank you gentlemen, and I appreciate this. I am aware of every little thing that may come along and bounce into the sound waves before I get to perceive, and so many possible variations before and after the output tubes in creating a quality sound, all important each one. but was hoping to focus on the tube for now. The listening room though not perfect (far from) is fine and the speakers are not an issue and the system driving them is not an issue either, and is not so much replacing speakers, but more of applying my background and experience to see what I can come up with.
ONWARD!
Tim
catching up LOL
WOW!
I am just tickled happy with the responses.
I had to additional my post since while writing it another page of posts appeared.
THANK YOU!
I think my last post sort of says that any and all aspects will impact the sound, and these variables are going into consideration as I finalize my design.
At least I have more time now to stay on top of the forum happenings and time to make this fella, so all I can say is pour it on folks, pour it on.
I still think that there will a preference of one or another type of tube among listeners, and this choice will vary greatly and that will be due to a multitude of things, including the choice of music listened to.
Is it possible for a moderator to include a poll on this maybe, listing many of the choice output tubes? Or is this something I can add to this thread.
Andy you mentioned psychology, Ill stick to mood for now.
One thing I am hoping is not to start any arguments on what other components to use, and agree that all of these are subject to choice and sound impact.
What I probablly should of stated was some basic specs as I make a choice. THis is rather simple really, 20-20000 Hz, power of 1 to 120 watts and anything in between, THD 1% or a lot less, SN -90 or better, Damping undecided
All specs are not set in stone.
FUN CITY!!!!!!!
Tim
WOW!
I am just tickled happy with the responses.
I had to additional my post since while writing it another page of posts appeared.
THANK YOU!
I think my last post sort of says that any and all aspects will impact the sound, and these variables are going into consideration as I finalize my design.
At least I have more time now to stay on top of the forum happenings and time to make this fella, so all I can say is pour it on folks, pour it on.
I still think that there will a preference of one or another type of tube among listeners, and this choice will vary greatly and that will be due to a multitude of things, including the choice of music listened to.
Is it possible for a moderator to include a poll on this maybe, listing many of the choice output tubes? Or is this something I can add to this thread.
Andy you mentioned psychology, Ill stick to mood for now.
One thing I am hoping is not to start any arguments on what other components to use, and agree that all of these are subject to choice and sound impact.
What I probablly should of stated was some basic specs as I make a choice. THis is rather simple really, 20-20000 Hz, power of 1 to 120 watts and anything in between, THD 1% or a lot less, SN -90 or better, Damping undecided
All specs are not set in stone.
FUN CITY!!!!!!!
Tim
I just looked at some of my posts and I apologize for the crazy spelling with some words
speeling is relative!
you will have to forgive my spelling as well quite frequently, something about my brain and fingers do not like each other.
data: I do a lot of acoustic testing, wood materials for resonance, harmonics, density, sustain, and so on. I have learned that all the testing in the world so far has not been able to replace the human ear, and thus the ear is the final judge in any case. The tools I use are just that... tools, and they are only a "part" of that picture. This is one of the reasons I asked the question of "preference" to somehow pull a focus on the listening aspect here.
I am glad you have posted! spelling too.
Tim
Man! I must be a wiedo, I can hear differences with valves, caps, and even resistors most of the time... and I even heard a big! difference when a series of three connected resistors were turned round to the opposite way in the same circuit position, and I was not alone
I heard a big difference in sound from my amp changing from Aerovox power caps to Mundorf M-litic HV caps.
*shrug*
+10, I guess no tube rollers here ....
And you fell for that .....
..
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Joined 2009
Paid Member
Yep, there sure is. Different types have different harmonic distortion. 807s like to make H5 and higher order harmonics that sound quite nasty running open loop. 807s need the extra assistance of local NFB to tame them for sonic performance. Feedback 10% of the plate AC to the grid, include gNFB and 807s sound excellent. That's how I used 'em myself with excellent results.
The 811 is the oddball mentioned here, as it's a "zero bias" RF power triode that will have to operate Class AB2 for any significant power. No experience with that, but MOSFET source follower drive definitely helps with sonic performance.
While 807s are good to about 30W in Class AB1 (up to 80+W in Class AB2) the 813 is good for quite a bit more, and 811s as well. Seems an odd mix of choices here. How much power do you need here?
Other types that do very well for audio are the TV HD finals. These can kick out some bigwatts, and do it with decent sonic performance. The bigger ones made for colour TV can get you north of the 100W territory. The main problem with these is that they are in short supply, as lots of them disappeared into ham rigs. You may need to consider types with other than 6.3V heaters for availability and price. As for clarity, transparency, and dynamics, 807s and the TV HD 6BQ6 both give that.
In that case, you might want to consider variable gNFB. Some Classical and softer rock (Karen Carpenter, Carol King) like more gNFB, and other forms (Ozzy, Techno, Metal) like less for that extra edge that brings it to life. It's another knob to twiddle, and can act like Doug Self's proposed "Niceness" control.
Yes, the odd ball for sure, and I forgot to mention the 803B as a candidate.
The 811 is not the top runner, design wise, but has worth in considering at least.
I really do not need a lot of power, only enough to clear a good S/N ratio, and a little headroom. I think of the canons in the 1812, and realize there are moments of punch I will request.
Typically some Vivaldi playing at around talk level, Sibelius a bit louder, Bach Organ works will get rather intense putting a demand on things. I also forgot to mention the choice of the 6146, and go with a PP-P design.
Yes, yes, giving way to the 807 over a 6L6 in a P-P to acquire that transparency factor, I think I may have a few of the 6BQ6's laying around... worth looking for while I ponder. As far as heater voltage goes, it doesn't matter really being a new design.
FUN FUN oh what to choose!
Interesting thought.......
Hmmm
Thank you for your thoughts Miles, and for kicking some brain cells into gear.
Tim
Update:
Well I like the impressions that have been offered here, and as I mull things over it comes time for me to set a preference of the style I will make, P-P, SE, UL ..etc.
I have been sort of leaning towards the 807 model of a P-P design, and with that had the crazy idea of making an SE style in 807's as well.
Dropping back in power was the 6V6 but that comes from my memory of an amp I used to have, so sweet, a 1952 homebrew off a dynaco design, (thats what they thought) yet I have never found a similar circuit to it. 12AU7 -6C4 - P-P 6V6 with around 20 watts per channel out.
I will be slower at responding for a week or two, it's that life thing. Get's in the way!
So that is where things are at for the moment.
I will post a schematic as it becomes a reality, and we shall go from there.
Back to the Life thing..
Be well EVERYONE!
Tim
Well I like the impressions that have been offered here, and as I mull things over it comes time for me to set a preference of the style I will make, P-P, SE, UL ..etc.
I have been sort of leaning towards the 807 model of a P-P design, and with that had the crazy idea of making an SE style in 807's as well.
Dropping back in power was the 6V6 but that comes from my memory of an amp I used to have, so sweet, a 1952 homebrew off a dynaco design, (thats what they thought) yet I have never found a similar circuit to it. 12AU7 -6C4 - P-P 6V6 with around 20 watts per channel out.
I will be slower at responding for a week or two, it's that life thing. Get's in the way!
So that is where things are at for the moment.
I will post a schematic as it becomes a reality, and we shall go from there.
Back to the Life thing..
Be well EVERYONE!
Tim
Not a bump but an update as things get busy busy here.
I think I am going to go for the 807 and this will be two amp sets, one P-P and one SE, both ones being mono blocks.
The only thing the last 2 weeks I was able to work on was the part of the transformer design, which is also coming along nicely. Long projects, I shall update as I go.
In the interim as well I am working on my gear and bringing all the poor things back to proper life. Moving took it's toll in a big way, then having to sit a few years after that, did not help!
It all comes together
Tim
I think I am going to go for the 807 and this will be two amp sets, one P-P and one SE, both ones being mono blocks.
The only thing the last 2 weeks I was able to work on was the part of the transformer design, which is also coming along nicely. Long projects, I shall update as I go.
In the interim as well I am working on my gear and bringing all the poor things back to proper life. Moving took it's toll in a big way, then having to sit a few years after that, did not help!
It all comes together
Tim
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