Just curious if you've experienced either of these effects -- it sounds like you're saying no but these are not uncommon in 2-channel:
1. Stereo imaging where certain sounds or instruments appear to be located behind you, in a very specific spot, e.g., over one shoulder, at a certain height. (I know this is just a random illusion but...)
2. Being in the sweet spot of two (often large) speakers, where your room's rear wall is far behind you, and you feel you are in the recording's space, completely (the "you are there" effect).
Ears don't do the "invention" - the brain does.
Certain types of stereo (again just 2 loudspeakers) can move images beyond and behind your listening position. It can even progress to the point where instead of "at the threshold of a room" you are more "into" the room/venue.
What it can't do is recreate quite the same sense of envelopment completely behind your position. And again - it's still a skewed "mirror" effect when the recording is a "live" recording with an audience (set behind the performers instead of having them appear near you in front of the performers).
Still, when we speak of "you are there" - we aren't talking about absolute accuracy of the event.
Instead "you are there" vs. "they are here" is more of a continuum - with compelling venue on one end and nearly a complete lack of venue on the other. Some have just managed to get much further down the path of "you are there" - at a point where the reproduction is highly compelling.
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I've used this description a number of times in various places, and it nails quite precisely what the subjective experience is: a concert experience in the recording hall is occurring, as an example, and then by some "magic" your listening room is uprooted, moved to inside that space and placed such that the speaker positions match that of the main microphones. Then, the end wall is completely removed, and you listen as through this "open window". It's as if your room has been converted to a private listening booth smack bang in the prime listening position at the performance. And the quality of reflections in your room will then moderate the attributes of the sound you hear within that large "listening booth"; but just as if this was something that physically happened, in no way do the qualities of the room reduce what you're hearing to something less than an impressive, immersive experience ...
Frank
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I've come across only a few that meet this restriction.
Most I've met/conversed with don't though.
Some even accept basic analog equalization.
The horror of it all. By and large an audiophile is someone seeking better sound through better *made* equipment - or at least a perception thereof. (..not necessarily better *engineered* equipment, though that's often desired as well.)
The classic problem for a few audiophiles though, is that the pursuit really doesn't have much to do with enjoying music. Which I find really bizarre.
100% correct. But this applies equally to any system, regardless of the number of channels or the number of radiating sources (speakers) placed in a room. The reality is that the room acoustics will always be superimposed on the sound radiated by the speakers, 2 or 100 channels. Thus the reality is that there can never be anything but a facsimile of the original, never a true duplication. It can never be "you are they". It will always be a pleasing illusion of reality at best. More channels may make it seem more realistic and anyone who has played around with multi channel should know, but you are there?
Which is my approach. Pano has got there through careful choice of playback equipment, and obviously a lot of thought and effort with refinement of the final transducers. Which means there are a number of ways of achieving the goal, pick the one that suits, that you feel most comfortable with ...
If you get it right, you get immense enjoyment from your recordings -- and if you want to really push it, you aim to make the "worst" recording you can find totally captivating ...
Frank
Not only is it a random illusion, but an illusion that can only take place with ones head in a vise. Can you really say this is not uncommon for stereo, or are you overselling your point here? This effect could possibly be coming from room based reflections that are hitting each ear at different times. That is not actual discrete information, and it would not fool me into thinking It was the sonics of an actual concert hall. The room signature of a concert hall sounds far different than the signature of my room.
I think you have "your are there", and "they are here" confused.
With two speakers, this is called "they are here" not "you are there". With just two speakers, and your rooms acoustical signature, you are not going to get the unique spatial and sonic characteristic of the actual recording space. You are going to hear the source, and your rooms unique acoustical signature via reflections. Every recording space sounds different, but your rooms sonic signature never changes unless you change it with acoustical treatment.
The classic problem for a few audiophiles though, is that the pursuit really doesn't have much to do with enjoying music. Which I find really bizarre.
+10 but I would say most, not a few.
My father was a professional violinist who played in a chamber orchestra in Philadelphia many years before be passed back in '78. Late in life I bought him an adequate stereo. However, when I would come by to visit most often he would be listening to concerts on his old Zenith, mono, FM radio. When I asked him why he didn't listen to the stereo he simply stated that it distracted him form the emotional connection with the music. I.e. he was listening to the reproduction rather than the performance.
Hi Soundtrackmixer,
I was asking if you had experienced those effects. So I think the answer is no, which is perfectly okay.
Yes, it's pretty common in a good 2-channel system to hear the holographic effects (sounds coming behind or beside you) and to feel like you're in the recording hall.
Surely that's not news to anyone -- or is it?! (I'm not saying multi-channel isn't better, or that stereo isn't flawed.)
I was asking if you had experienced those effects. So I think the answer is no, which is perfectly okay.
Yes, it's pretty common in a good 2-channel system to hear the holographic effects (sounds coming behind or beside you) and to feel like you're in the recording hall.
Surely that's not news to anyone -- or is it?! (I'm not saying multi-channel isn't better, or that stereo isn't flawed.)
Now this flies in the face of what I heard Dr. Toole state in a seminar. He said quite clearly, that the more speakers you add to a room, the less the rooms acoustics are heard. The ratio of room sound superimposing over the speakers changes when you add speakers more speakers aimed at your ears. The more speakers you have in the room, the more dominate the direct sound you will hear. With just two speakers, that room superimposition is very strong.
That is fairly obvious.
You are defining "your are there" in very absolute and literal way. All playback from speakers is an illusion. What we are looking for is not recreating the actual live experience, but a realistic illusion of it. From my experience, a 7.1 system gets you profoundly closer than two channel does.
Actually the answer is yes. But the effect was fleeting, unstable, and fell apart when I moved off axis.
If it is so common, then why in all of the 4,000 stereo CD's I have, I have only heard this effect very few times? Since there is no "behind you" information in stereo(unless it is processed), how does that sound get there? It is room reflection, not from the source itself.
My point is your are over emphasizing and overselling this effect. It is not a common occurance at all.
Well, hmm, I hear it daily but then again, I set my speakers up to maximize that. My only point is that two-channel can be convincingly holographic (to whatever degree) and that's nothing against multi-channel (which I used to have, and loved it).
No, it's factual. No one has an unlimited experience of stereo. That's a fact.
Just because you have not heard it, or think it can not exist, does not make it so. Why? Because I and many other people have experienced it.
While I understand your argument and your logic, I have to tell you that it is wrong. That may be hard to believe, but it's true. Sometimes real experience trumps logic.
Soundtrackmixer, you can keep telling us its not possible, but I have heard it. With stereo. The room really does go away, and you really are transported elsewhere. I have never heard it again, not on my system, not at RMAF or at BAF, or on other highly directional systems. The effect was so startling that it is burned in my memory.
I'll give you the example of one recording (there were many we heard that day). It was a solo cello recorded in a highly reverberant, large space. The recording is available on npr, if only I can find it. On all other speakers, it sounds good but the space is not quite conveyed. On Pano's, it was totally different. You were in row 10, and you could point to the cello with the sound of the hall coming through perfectly. And it was unshakable too. You could move (slightly), but not shake away the illusion.
I'll give you the example of one recording (there were many we heard that day). It was a solo cello recorded in a highly reverberant, large space. The recording is available on npr, if only I can find it. On all other speakers, it sounds good but the space is not quite conveyed. On Pano's, it was totally different. You were in row 10, and you could point to the cello with the sound of the hall coming through perfectly. And it was unshakable too. You could move (slightly), but not shake away the illusion.
What you are hearing Pano is your speakers, and your own room reflections. It is a byproduct of their interaction, not a part of the source. It is a unique characteristic of that interaction, and I cannot see every two channel system being able to recreate it or we wouldn't need surround. Your unique set up is not duplicated by thousands, it is a localized effect confined to your speakers and room.
What is so many others? 10 people? 100 people? 1,000 people? How many rooms and speakers? 10,100, or 1,000?
ra&,
I think that yes you can have that illusion that you are talking about of specific sounds floating in space and not identifiable as coming from a single speaker. The only problem with that in most cases is that it only works in a very narrow positioning in the room. You can not move 5 or 6 feet to the side and still get the illusion, it is very room speaker interface specific in where it works, hence the head in a vise comment so often spoken of. That is the biggest deficit of this chase to recreate that effect, it is not going to work for an entire group sitting across a large couch, it may only work for one or two people at best in most cases if you can achieve that nirvana in the first place. It would be easier to do with a multichannel system, but the observation of soundtrackmixer that the room then does not superimpose just as it does with two channel makes no sense. You still have all the additive room reflections just as in two channel. To say that the direct first impulse will drown out the reflections would only work in a very dead room, not in a fairly reflective room which is much more typical in a home. In a steady state the room modes are excited and the decay time will have more to do with it than the ratio of direct to reflected sound. I can't see in my home the option of putting massive amounts of sound absorbing panels, bass traps and dispersion panels. If I had a nice large man cave or dedicated movie theater I would attempt that but not in a typical multi-use room that may be for entertainment one day and music on another. We can't always speak of the extreme optimized situation and expect many to ever achieve those same result.
I think that yes you can have that illusion that you are talking about of specific sounds floating in space and not identifiable as coming from a single speaker. The only problem with that in most cases is that it only works in a very narrow positioning in the room. You can not move 5 or 6 feet to the side and still get the illusion, it is very room speaker interface specific in where it works, hence the head in a vise comment so often spoken of. That is the biggest deficit of this chase to recreate that effect, it is not going to work for an entire group sitting across a large couch, it may only work for one or two people at best in most cases if you can achieve that nirvana in the first place. It would be easier to do with a multichannel system, but the observation of soundtrackmixer that the room then does not superimpose just as it does with two channel makes no sense. You still have all the additive room reflections just as in two channel. To say that the direct first impulse will drown out the reflections would only work in a very dead room, not in a fairly reflective room which is much more typical in a home. In a steady state the room modes are excited and the decay time will have more to do with it than the ratio of direct to reflected sound. I can't see in my home the option of putting massive amounts of sound absorbing panels, bass traps and dispersion panels. If I had a nice large man cave or dedicated movie theater I would attempt that but not in a typical multi-use room that may be for entertainment one day and music on another. We can't always speak of the extreme optimized situation and expect many to ever achieve those same result.
It's good to hear that a number of people have experienced the "illusion" projected so well. There is no need to be "obsessed" about sound coming from behind you, directly or at angles to the side - when the direct image is so powerfully convincing then the "everywhere else" elements are quite irrelevant to the subjective experience.
The good news is that that level of "illusion" occurs for everything, on the most unlikely recordings: 30's swing orchestra tracks; one that was particularly intriguing was Nellie Melba, around 1912, ultra primitive recording - in the distance, about 20 feet back you can hear the piano accompaniment clearly delineated, the space around the instrument nicely captured, it conveys a true sense of being a real piano ...
Frank
The good news is that that level of "illusion" occurs for everything, on the most unlikely recordings: 30's swing orchestra tracks; one that was particularly intriguing was Nellie Melba, around 1912, ultra primitive recording - in the distance, about 20 feet back you can hear the piano accompaniment clearly delineated, the space around the instrument nicely captured, it conveys a true sense of being a real piano ...
Frank
Wrong. It can work thoughout the entire room, you can't "shake" off the illusion, it's rock solid. When one's head decides to believe in the "mirage", that's it -- even sticking your ear against a speaker driver doesn't shatter it, that's why it's so impressive.
Edit: and in my case it has nothing to do with room treatment. I have never altered a single thing in the room to get "better sound", the speaker are stuck where it's convenient and that's the end of it ...
Frank
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Frank that illusion I think has been heard by many, just that it is not an easy thing to accomplish and is very speaker room specific when it works. I will always remember the times when I have had speakers with resolution that is mostly unknown to others. Those aha moments when you say wow I can actually hear exactly what that high frequency sound is, it is the sound of a triangle, not a cymbal crash, or hearing details in the music that you could never quit make out any other time you listened to a particular sound and then there it is load and clear, you know exactly what it was and you hear that person talking in the background in the studio and know what that person was saying. That is the magic of high end sound, the details that others will never hear on a normal system.