Hey JRKO,
I just got back from Dave's. I asked him to put these on. We listened to about 6 or 7 songs. Because I don't have tons of time with them, and it was Dave's music, I'll keep it short. I also don't know what configuration of tweeter he's using.
They sounded better than I thought they would. Nothing that was really bad about them. But with that, nothing really great either. I would have given them a 6/10 until one of the last songs and Dave turned it up. There was a repeated guitar strike on the 2 and 4 beats that really showed something bad. Probably that break up junk around 4khz and up. I did notice some cymbals and stuff sounding not quite right. Female voices sounded fine, but not amazing. Drums were good. Bass I thought was pretty good, but Dave felt otherwise. Perhaps it can be improved, but I was impressed.
So in the end I'd give them a 5 the way they are. I hope that doesn't sound discouraging. I rate things pretty harshly. 10 is an acoustic live performance, so there isn't a speaker in the world that will get a 10 from me. I've never built anything that I'd call a 9. And I'm not sure I've even built an 8. Although I've built some 2s and 3s
So there you go. Not bad really, for a test project. I could live with these with the right requirements. My personal requirements would not fit these, but that's cause they're HUGE!!!
EDIT - Oh ya, I wanted to add that they had big sound. Imaging was a little blurry and tended to be in one speaker or the other. Otherwise it was smeared in the middle somewhere. But big effortless sound. I think that's been said before.
I just got back from Dave's. I asked him to put these on. We listened to about 6 or 7 songs. Because I don't have tons of time with them, and it was Dave's music, I'll keep it short. I also don't know what configuration of tweeter he's using.
They sounded better than I thought they would. Nothing that was really bad about them. But with that, nothing really great either. I would have given them a 6/10 until one of the last songs and Dave turned it up. There was a repeated guitar strike on the 2 and 4 beats that really showed something bad. Probably that break up junk around 4khz and up. I did notice some cymbals and stuff sounding not quite right. Female voices sounded fine, but not amazing. Drums were good. Bass I thought was pretty good, but Dave felt otherwise. Perhaps it can be improved, but I was impressed.
So in the end I'd give them a 5 the way they are. I hope that doesn't sound discouraging. I rate things pretty harshly. 10 is an acoustic live performance, so there isn't a speaker in the world that will get a 10 from me. I've never built anything that I'd call a 9. And I'm not sure I've even built an 8. Although I've built some 2s and 3s
So there you go. Not bad really, for a test project. I could live with these with the right requirements. My personal requirements would not fit these, but that's cause they're HUGE!!! EDIT - Oh ya, I wanted to add that they had big sound. Imaging was a little blurry and tended to be in one speaker or the other. Otherwise it was smeared in the middle somewhere. But big effortless sound. I think that's been said before.
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Foster/RadioShack horn with 2 uF cap. Far from optimum
It is not that the bass is bad, i just think it could be more controlled in my room. As they are tuned i'd say really good for a room with lots of room gain (from what i understand, a smallish, made with brick UK lounge?)
dave
PS: sippy, got your beta from by Her Majesty's post, just need to revise Rev 2 from 15mm to 18mm for your use.
After seeing tuxedocivics listening impression I can't resist chiming in. I know this will go against the grain around here, but the biggest improvement in my 12ltas came when I crossed them at about 2k to a css planer2 tweeter. There top end didn't sound great to me and didn't extend high enough to go without a tweeter anyway. The thing that surprised me the most was the improvement in imaging. Running full range the sweet spot was tiny. Getting a good image was near impossible. Stuff just shifted around or came from one side or the other. Any way now my 12ltas are midranges, and probably not the best I could be using, but the system sounds more then good enough to listen to....for now.
Evan
Evan
I'm going to play with a few tweeters (including one that will reach 2k -- Ryan is going to pick them up when he makes his trip to the US of A). But 1st, i need to make the drivers as good as i can.
dave
I already forget the lyrics. Was female singer with guitar chord shots and fairly upbeat. It was the last, or one of the last songs. Dave?
I think these are good points and align with what I heard. I think it would be nice to get these playing nicely without an elaborate tweeter/cross over, for cost and for purity (although purity isn't something I personally strive to achieve, no pun intended there, I really don't mind cross overs
).Oh ya, I forgot to mention. I ordered those this morning.
I know crossing that low defeats the purpose of the full range driver, but good sound is good sound. I think imaging thing goes towards your love of the smaller full range driver. I bet your cabinet will excel at getting the most out of the drivers lower ranges, something I couldn't do....
Evan
Evan
I'm glad another set of ears has heard them and I'm certainly not discouraged by anyones comments. The more people who hear them or build them, then more people trying to make them better which serves me well (selfish? me?) and I'm grateful to all for their efforts in this respects. Especially as everyone who has heard them so far knows more about how to improve them than I do
If they are a 5 now I guess we might end up with a 6 or 7 after some 'tweekery' and thats better than a lot of commercial speakers costing ££££'s. I love the big driver/box sound - its so effortless, it makes the sound more real to me as no live music I've ever heard sounds forced. Maybe thats the key?
Yeah its brick all round with AND concrete floor/ceiling - sounds like a bunker but its a 1st floor appt. I guess your place is mostly wood, certainly large wooden floors and big open rooms from the pix of your annual get together.
I wonder if my lining material is making some difference? Its thicker than the 1/2 inch stated but maybe slightly 'looser' in texture. Its called needled wool felt upholstery filling/padding. I couldn't find anything that didn't cost almost as much as the wood!!! Its sooo flaming expensive over here
James aka JRKO
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James, you bet. These have potential. Definite commercial killers. The effortless sound is very important to making it sound realistic.
I think pushed up against the wall would be great. Dave also mentioned that when I was there. I would think the sub-200hz stuff would be reinforced while everything above would be forced forward because of the large baffle.
I think pushed up against the wall would be great. Dave also mentioned that when I was there. I would think the sub-200hz stuff would be reinforced while everything above would be forced forward because of the large baffle.
As JRKO's are tuned the sim shows a response that starts gently rolling off below 100 Hz at a 4-5 dB/octave rate, before turning the corner ar about 35 Hz and an F10 of just over 30. In a room like JRKO's and up close to a wall that likely means response flat to 35-40 Hz and responce well into the 20s.
I hooked up Bernie's Abraxas 2A3SE yesterday, and that is the best amp so far.
dave
I hooked up Bernie's Abraxas 2A3SE yesterday, and that is the best amp so far.
dave
I actually find that these start getting hard on the ears -- probably some resonance that can hopefully be tamed -- before the little Mar-Kel70 Floorstander FSIII.
dave
Thanks for the heads-up on the beta form landing in your letterbox Dave.
I mentioned backing 'speakers hard against the rear wall, though in my present room, which is stud/plasterboard, bass reinforcement would be more for my neighbours than myself - luckily I have a fairly good relationship with them all and we self curfew 10am - 7pm.
Interesting to hear of other peoples listening impressions, esp the trying of the 2a3se....... reading Mr.Pass's articles, the low damping factor approach would seem a good one, maybe a Zen4 or a PLH is on the cards for moi.
I mentioned backing 'speakers hard against the rear wall, though in my present room, which is stud/plasterboard, bass reinforcement would be more for my neighbours than myself - luckily I have a fairly good relationship with them all and we self curfew 10am - 7pm.
Interesting to hear of other peoples listening impressions, esp the trying of the 2a3se....... reading Mr.Pass's articles, the low damping factor approach would seem a good one, maybe a Zen4 or a PLH is on the cards for moi.
Ya the effortlessness would sure help the dynamics along, you know 0 to cannonfire in 1 scond.
also the low level stuff atmospheric music for tension etc.
then theres the whole visual presentation! Look at my front stage! 3 12" monitors! Boo yaa!
the coherence is going to be magnificent and no trouble transitioning to 2 channel music enjoyment.
also the low level stuff atmospheric music for tension etc.
then theres the whole visual presentation! Look at my front stage! 3 12" monitors! Boo yaa!
the coherence is going to be magnificent and no trouble transitioning to 2 channel music enjoyment.
FWIW, this driver's predecessor [12LT] was discussed at length for HT apps some years ago and at least one person built MLTLs for the mains installed behind a screen. Coupled to piezo radial horns, they were quite pleased with the results, so see no reason why the current version couldn't work just as well. What folks are calling an 'Econowave' system now. Unfortunately, all my records are gone except for a sim of it done several years later along with some other builds to see how accurate MJK's MathCad software was. Still looks good with some LTA measured specs:
GM
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