Workhorse said:
Come on Workhorse.... you do not read my posts?
First you promote me as good salesman and now as an idiot?..
Workhorse said:
I am complaining exactly about that. On the last years a few big brands, start to advertise “peak power output” as a replacement for the average power.
Worst is that now they suggest the PPO thing as if it is the “old” average.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1205690#post1205690
sajti said:
Hi sajti
I suppose that Outline is good stuff as well, but I must confess that I don’t know physically their loudspeakers. Only the Patents.
Pictures for your reference are following.
I have erased any brand reference.
I must advert that all this is protected by patents.
Mr. Moderators, I don’t know if it is or it is not permitted to do this.
Please feel free to erase this stuff if it is eventually against the rules…
It is not my intention to infect this place with commercial or self promotional stuff…
First the precision rig mechanism:
TOINO said:
Toino, I have no intention to hurt your sentiments, I apologize for that, if you feel its a kind of misconduct...thats why i have deleted that post..I thought that you must be providing us with some facts about your 30Kg Reference amp to whom with you compared other lighter weight amps, thats all..but i see no info...and that i really donot expect from you atleast...You have a reputition on this forum of providing some CONCRETE Evidences...which i always admire....
TOINO's statemens seem quite hard to believe to me too.
A 30Kg purely linear stereo "oldschool" amplifier, without rail switching or switchmode stuff, will require 4U of rack space and may produce 500/800/1000Wrms (continuous) into 8/4/2 ohms at best, and another 500/800/1000W of heat during normal use, something hard to deal with when you get a bunch of those amplifiers stacked in a rack. Not to mention the weight of the rack when it comes to move it in and out of the truck/plane and pay the fuel...
On the other hand, the so called light weight amplifiers can produce the same continuous power if designed properly, but at the same time they can behave as three times more powerful amplifiers with music signals. Not to mention the much reduced heat production in the racks and the ease of handling.
Also, it's quite hard to believe that 10-100uS of uniform subwoofer amplifier DSP latency could ruin your 1-10ms bass delay patterns... If you had actually designed those patterns, you wouldn't have any trouble compensating for the latency (oh, did you forget the password of the DSP??
just kidding)
A 30Kg purely linear stereo "oldschool" amplifier, without rail switching or switchmode stuff, will require 4U of rack space and may produce 500/800/1000Wrms (continuous) into 8/4/2 ohms at best, and another 500/800/1000W of heat during normal use, something hard to deal with when you get a bunch of those amplifiers stacked in a rack. Not to mention the weight of the rack when it comes to move it in and out of the truck/plane and pay the fuel...
On the other hand, the so called light weight amplifiers can produce the same continuous power if designed properly, but at the same time they can behave as three times more powerful amplifiers with music signals. Not to mention the much reduced heat production in the racks and the ease of handling.
Also, it's quite hard to believe that 10-100uS of uniform subwoofer amplifier DSP latency could ruin your 1-10ms bass delay patterns... If you had actually designed those patterns, you wouldn't have any trouble compensating for the latency (oh, did you forget the password of the DSP??
just kidding)
BTW: The power ratings of the previously mentioned manufacturers are probably burst power with a certain duty cycle (as high as the PSU and the cooling system can handle). Periodic tone burst is one of my favourite amplifier testing methods because it allows to evaluate the full voltage/current behaviour of any circuit without actually drawing that much power from mains outlet or requiring huge dummy loads. It mimics power requirements of music quite well too.
Eva
I have decided to quit, but you are obviously trying to make me an idiot.
Please, do not put your own words in my lips and be reported to facts.
Are you using some kind of divination?
Where you have read in my previous posts that my reference amplifier is without rail switching or whatever?
The only reasonable dilation you could take as an intelligent person, is that the amplifier has about 30Kg, period.
So what?
In your post here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1205734#post1205734
Do you know the weight of your QSC EX4000?
No? Go here: http://www.qscaudio.com/pdfs/manuals/discontinued/EX2500_4000_manual.pdf and see on page 6.
29Kg !!!!
So I am an idiot because I am mimicking you, using amplifiers as heavy as yours and pay the some fuel as you pay?
Sorry?
Your discourtesy embarrasses me… the latency I am talking about is 2mS and I am reinjecting post loudspeaker signals in the Dsp.
I have designed the entire system, and about the applied signal processing, you could only speculate, because I will not say a word about it.
I have decided to quit, but you are obviously trying to make me an idiot.
Please, do not put your own words in my lips and be reported to facts.
Are you using some kind of divination?
Where you have read in my previous posts that my reference amplifier is without rail switching or whatever?
The only reasonable dilation you could take as an intelligent person, is that the amplifier has about 30Kg, period.
So what?
In your post here: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=1205734#post1205734
Do you know the weight of your QSC EX4000?
No? Go here: http://www.qscaudio.com/pdfs/manuals/discontinued/EX2500_4000_manual.pdf and see on page 6.
29Kg !!!!
Eva said:
So I am an idiot because I am mimicking you, using amplifiers as heavy as yours and pay the some fuel as you pay?
Eva said:
Sorry?
Your discourtesy embarrasses me… the latency I am talking about is 2mS and I am reinjecting post loudspeaker signals in the Dsp.
I have designed the entire system, and about the applied signal processing, you could only speculate, because I will not say a word about it.
OH, but wait a minute....
The EX4000 is really a weak amplifier. It only has 30,000uF of supply capacitance per each of the three 45V rails, which in practice behave as 10,000uF as they are effectively connected in series. Also, the supply transformers are a quite weak part in that design, they weight a lot yet I remember the rails sagging badly from 145V down to 100V under 4 ohm heavy use and a real-world 205V sagging mains supply...
Also, the output stage is quite compromised for 4 and 2 ohm operation and anything but music signals because only 6 pairs of power devices are employed
Damn, we have another compromised amplifier like the ones weighting 12kg, but this one weights 29kg !!! Maybe weight is more related to the (stone-age) technology employed rather than to the capability of the amplifier to achieve continuous power output? How about a SMPS to cut weight by 15Kg or so?? (Oh, no!! You hate switching mode electronics!! Lets stick to 15kg of iron, and thick 4U steel cases adding another 5kg for that matter...)
The EX4000 is really a weak amplifier. It only has 30,000uF of supply capacitance per each of the three 45V rails, which in practice behave as 10,000uF
as they are effectively connected in series. Also, the supply transformers are a quite weak part in that design, they weight a lot yet I remember the rails sagging badly from 145V down to 100V under 4 ohm heavy use and a real-world 205V sagging mains supply...Also, the output stage is quite compromised for 4 and 2 ohm operation and anything but music signals because only 6 pairs of power devices are employed
Damn, we have another compromised amplifier like the ones weighting 12kg, but this one weights 29kg !!! Maybe weight is more related to the (stone-age) technology employed rather than to the capability of the amplifier to achieve continuous power output? How about a SMPS to cut weight by 15Kg or so?? (Oh, no!! You hate switching mode electronics!! Lets stick to 15kg of iron, and thick 4U steel cases adding another 5kg for that matter...)
This is not realistic at all pinkmouse. All modern amplifier series are optimized for weight and size reduction because that's what all major touring PA companies are demanding. 30Kg PA amplifiers have been discontinued for the past 10 years or so because almost nobody wants to buy them now, they are mostly found in fixed installations. Crew salaries, insurances and taxes account for quite a lot of money in any developed country, and as a result, the smaller the crew the higher the profit.
Same happens for line arrays as TOINO pointed out in some previous post. They replaced a bulky 6 ton system that would otherwise be OK by a more compact 800Kg system because it's just easier and less costly to handle and fly.
All major high-power PA amplifier manufacturers would be including 30kg, 40kg or even 60kg stuff in their newer series if there was any demand for them in the marked.
Same happens for line arrays as TOINO pointed out in some previous post. They replaced a bulky 6 ton system that would otherwise be OK by a more compact 800Kg system because it's just easier and less costly to handle and fly.
All major high-power PA amplifier manufacturers would be including 30kg, 40kg or even 60kg stuff in their newer series if there was any demand for them in the marked.
Eva said:
But there is. Depreciation on the newer lightweight amps is huge, whereas the big, heavy amps you decry can still sell for virtually their list price S/H. They work, and keep working, and are relatively easy to service, unlike modern lightweight amps that only last a couple of years.
edit: I completely agree with you about flying stacks though.
pinkmouse said:
I can't agree about the lack of reliability because we have very reliable switching mode stuff everywhere else (aerospace, telecom, computers, appliances, industrial motor control), but I think that the switching mode audio technology (more likely the designers) is not yet mature enough (they are usually linear minds forced to get involved into switching stuff by marked trends...)
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