-Did you ever measure "jitter" of the word clock inside a player?
I've never done that. There are some CD Jitters metters, I've never have been interested in those devices, it are not necessary, for me at least.
http://www.meguro.com.my/product/bdcddvd-jitter-meter/mjm-6350/
https://calright.com/product/kikusui-kjm6775-time-interval-dvd-cd-jitter-meter/
I've never done that. There are some CD Jitters metters, I've never have been interested in those devices, it are not necessary, for me at least.
http://www.meguro.com.my/product/bdcddvd-jitter-meter/mjm-6350/
https://calright.com/product/kikusui-kjm6775-time-interval-dvd-cd-jitter-meter/
Same with me. I own a collection of CD-Players, from one of the first, Sony CDP-101, over a heavily modded Nakamichi OMS-5II that got a Buffalo II DAC from 2011 implanted to a 1-bit Sony CDP-X5000 from 1996. I bet my *** if we put some people from this forum in front of them for a blind test, they would not be able to tell the difference, though DAC-design is 30 years apart.
By the way, a dream to look at this vintage machine, a Sony CDP-5000, without the "X", it was released even before the CDP-101:
https://vintage-audio-laser.com/A-l-atelier-page-87
and this:
https://vintage-audio-laser.com/A-l-atelier-page-83#1
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Then I was building in improved power supplies and low jitter clocks by various brands so I know the sometimes large improvement. I repaired and modified many CD players for customers and became aware of the impact of jitter. It was one of the key reasons to abandon CD just like the already occurring unavailability of mechs/lasers.
When manufacturers were improving on jitter the quality of the mechs already was so so and not comparable with CDM4 or the like. That one is not interested in a known weak point of a topology does not solve that weak point. It is ignoring facts and just standing still while technology goes on. Of course one can dream away by being able to now obtain devices that were then unaffordably expensive but as a tech one is not involved with technical stuff that way nor with the nostalgia or romantical view on matters.
Of course the first generations solid state players were not perfect either but things have developed. Today one is surprised when for instance a DAC does not have ultra low jitter XOs.
When manufacturers were improving on jitter the quality of the mechs already was so so and not comparable with CDM4 or the like. That one is not interested in a known weak point of a topology does not solve that weak point. It is ignoring facts and just standing still while technology goes on. Of course one can dream away by being able to now obtain devices that were then unaffordably expensive but as a tech one is not involved with technical stuff that way nor with the nostalgia or romantical view on matters.
Of course the first generations solid state players were not perfect either but things have developed. Today one is surprised when for instance a DAC does not have ultra low jitter XOs.
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We did measure jitter and we also heard the consequences. Anyone busy with digital audio tried to correlate results and topologies and find out the reasons that the DAC chip itself was not the main culprit. Two different CD players based on the same DAC chip could sound different. Two CD players by the same brand and with the same DAC chip could sound very different. Some CD players with known good DAC chips simply were bad sounding. Why?
All pre large scale Internet availability so no wide spread information. So long ago that I forgot the details of CD players except Marantz CD80 which I particularly liked. No not just opinions or ghosts build up in minds. 20 Years ago it were mainly Tent clocks that were within reach and these caused a following as the results were pretty much predictable. If there would be no improvement one would not need to take the risk disassembling an expensive CD player! Please have a look at modern audio electronics and the care for clocks and their power supplies. For instance NDK produces good quality XOs.
The same goes for SPDIF coax outputs that sometimes were appallingly bad. I joined diyaudio because of the wish to improve SPDIF. Today I think avoiding the 2 box approach (or any external digital interface) at all really is the best choice.
All pre large scale Internet availability so no wide spread information. So long ago that I forgot the details of CD players except Marantz CD80 which I particularly liked. No not just opinions or ghosts build up in minds. 20 Years ago it were mainly Tent clocks that were within reach and these caused a following as the results were pretty much predictable. If there would be no improvement one would not need to take the risk disassembling an expensive CD player! Please have a look at modern audio electronics and the care for clocks and their power supplies. For instance NDK produces good quality XOs.
The same goes for SPDIF coax outputs that sometimes were appallingly bad. I joined diyaudio because of the wish to improve SPDIF. Today I think avoiding the 2 box approach (or any external digital interface) at all really is the best choice.
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So what? Since when was it a risk to disassemble an expensive CD-Player? I even was forced to use a Tentlabs Clock to uprade my Nakamichi Player with SPDIF, as the TI Digital transmitters needed a base frequency of 16.9344mHz. I had the impression it sounded better 17 years ago, but I doubt it now - the time of the mod was just too long to memorize the differences, working on many music and film mixes did teach me how much we trick ourselves: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/...m-the-eighties-into-the-digital-domain.88616/ The Nak now runs for 33 years, I even adressed the problem that the belts driving the laser get worn out: https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/bye-bye-belt-modding-the-nakamichi-oms-7-5.359004/
So anything can be addressed. I also doubt that jitter over SPDIF is a problem for modern Dacs. Check audiosciencereview on this. So, everything ManoloMos and others do and achieve is not a waste of time at all.
So anything can be addressed. I also doubt that jitter over SPDIF is a problem for modern Dacs. Check audiosciencereview on this. So, everything ManoloMos and others do and achieve is not a waste of time at all.
In communication networks, synchronous communications, like SDH networks, clock precision and low jitter is important. But CD players are a technology too simply compared to SDH and other synchronous communications networks. I can bet that in a double blind test, you can't tell the difference betwen a normal cd player and a cd with disturbed jitter, and this difference are not meassurable with a audio test device.
If you look these CD Jitter devices, it measures the CD RF signal(EFM signal (eye-pattern)), so, when you meassuring a CD jitter, you only are seing the first stage of a cd player signal, but this signal is not procesed yet, there is a long way until it ends in your ears.
There is a lot beliefs in audiophile world, that are firmly stablished, and are impossible to erradicate. I think is some kind bias in the human mind, Cognitive dissonance, etc... Is easiest to believe, that to probe it yourself or study yourself. Like Galileo, look by the telescope, believe what you see though it, because the Earth moves, in spite the Bible says another thing.
If you look these CD Jitter devices, it measures the CD RF signal(EFM signal (eye-pattern)), so, when you meassuring a CD jitter, you only are seing the first stage of a cd player signal, but this signal is not procesed yet, there is a long way until it ends in your ears.
There is a lot beliefs in audiophile world, that are firmly stablished, and are impossible to erradicate. I think is some kind bias in the human mind, Cognitive dissonance, etc... Is easiest to believe, that to probe it yourself or study yourself. Like Galileo, look by the telescope, believe what you see though it, because the Earth moves, in spite the Bible says another thing.
Jitter has nothing to do with beliefs. Ignoring decades old well known deficiences of digital audio is more in the area of religion. There is no built in checks in SPDIF for instance. It is multiplexed with the clock signal and one way.
But.. I see where this is going (not measurable, beliefs, bias, cognitive dissonance) and since I was into CD when it was launched I conclude it was a nice chit chat. Ciao!
But.. I see where this is going (not measurable, beliefs, bias, cognitive dissonance) and since I was into CD when it was launched I conclude it was a nice chit chat. Ciao!
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Beliefs are when you think jitter affect sound quality or any other characteristic, and this belief cannot be accepted by in laboratory, double blind test, or scientific method.
When I repair or try to solve any problem in electronic, I try to use Scientific method. When you try to solve any problem only with beliefs, rarely you find the problem.
For example, this forum is full of threads of bad tryings of reparations replacing capacitors. There is some kind of believe that replacing capacigtors is the Holy Grail of electronic reparations. Beliefs, no facts. Magical thinking us logical thinking. Who do yo think is the best for electronic?
You choses.
When I repair or try to solve any problem in electronic, I try to use Scientific method. When you try to solve any problem only with beliefs, rarely you find the problem.
For example, this forum is full of threads of bad tryings of reparations replacing capacitors. There is some kind of believe that replacing capacigtors is the Holy Grail of electronic reparations. Beliefs, no facts. Magical thinking us logical thinking. Who do yo think is the best for electronic?
You choses.
I completely and respectfully disagree that optical drive based players are not reliable or serviceable. I use only philips CDM based swing arm drives that play flawlessly, even non- redbook authored discs. I have thousands of disks and every single one plays flawlessly.In 2 afternoons one could have digitized many CD's (one often hears that that is too time consuming....)I don't enjoy CD's anymore since at least 15 years and never regretted anything. In fact I scrap every CD player as optical days are over because of wear-out, age, lack of spare parts and the large footprint of device and media. Of course I do know the joy of being able to repair or build stuff that is why I suggested to build an audio player. That is, of course, if the main goal is to playback music. It is just a suggestion!
Digitizing CDs is not a perfect process despite many people's opinions on this. I've used only Steinberg's Wavelab to rip CDs if I need to and it appears to do a very clean job with minimal errors. You will always have some errors, which is why I dont like to digitize CDs.
There is an inherent satisfaction of playing physical media and its a very enjoyable experience.
I also use computer drives to play from as these buffer the PCM as it gets extracted, so you don't have any skips when you play your music loud. I use an Oppo BDP105 to play other odd format discs such as SACD, DAD and DVD audio. No issues whatsoever.
The problem with Sony based players is the lens can become contaminated from the underside which is impossible to clean. The one way reflective coatings can be compromised when trying to clean them and the emissive output drops.
I have extra parts for my players and know how to service most optical players based on my service experience back from the 80s. You need specialty equipment to do the job properly.
I would steer clear of the KSS based lasers if possible but you can get them to perform very well if the transport is built with alot of metal and solid materials. Most of the Sony stuff is flimsy. Lots of nylon gears and molded plastic parts that break. The philips stuff is much better, as is the Sanyo based SF91 platform.
I have extra parts for my players and know how to service most optical players based on my service experience back from the 80s. You need specialty equipment to do the job properly.
I would steer clear of the KSS based lasers if possible but you can get them to perform very well if the transport is built with alot of metal and solid materials. Most of the Sony stuff is flimsy. Lots of nylon gears and molded plastic parts that break. The philips stuff is much better, as is the Sanyo based SF91 platform.
This also is very good news for Accuphase owners
KSS for Accuphase needs different configuration though, so you can't use a KSS that is configured for a Sony player in an Accuphase. It needs adjustment. Life expectancy is 10.000 hours. Sometimes the lens needs to be replaced, but that is rather incidental, until now I never encountered a defective suspension.
Since these are original laser diodes, adjustment is very precise, they fit perfectly.
Btw, until now I can't get my Ian Canada FIFO Q3 based streamer + connected discrete 64-bit R2R dac (all fed with top of the bill dedicated transformers and psu's with discrete voltage regulators) on par with my modified CDP-X7ESD and modified CDP-X707ES. The Sony players just sound more live like, more musical sounding. I tried a lot to improve the streamer-dac config, still not sure how it is possible that these 30 to 35 year old players sound that good when modified adequately.
I just love all these top of the line Sony ES(D) cd-players, and I think it is a crime to dismantle them if these have a bad laser diode.
I just love all these top of the line Sony ES(D) cd-players, and I think it is a crime to dismantle them if these have a bad laser diode.
Many laser units have been replaced in the past while they were not defective at all. This concerns the KSS-190A as well as the KSS-281A and the KSS-272A. Often there are other defects and misalignments, and the laser is thought to be the culprit when it is not.
For now, 35 years later, prism and lens needs to be cleaned, at least, because they all got polluted which affects the final SQ.
Hallo Leute
I also have reading problems with Sonx cdp339Es.Laser unit is KSS 272A.
The KSS272A has 3 three potentiometers.Is there a potentiometer for laser current increase?
I have already measured RF(RF0) =800mV very little with Osziloscop. Sony states 1.2Vss?
I think my laser is blocked malfunction
But I would increase the laser current.
I found a Picture KSS272A, but where it says RF there is only a solid resistor.
Gruss Chris
I also have reading problems with Sonx cdp339Es.Laser unit is KSS 272A.
The KSS272A has 3 three potentiometers.Is there a potentiometer for laser current increase?
I have already measured RF(RF0) =800mV very little with Osziloscop. Sony states 1.2Vss?
I think my laser is blocked malfunction
But I would increase the laser current.
I found a Picture KSS272A, but where it says RF there is only a solid resistor.
Gruss Chris
Attachments
I have replaced the laser diode assemblies in about half a dozen units over the years which always fixed my tracking problems. Sourced from Liberty on Ebay. But wondering why I never hear of people using Blu-ray players and running into separate Dac stand-alone units. Tried this recently and had excellent sound from this combo. As good as any of my complete CD players through the years (NAD, Cambridge, Phillips, Sony, Onkyo)