Karlson principles
I hope this is the thread to post Karlson questions.
Can someone please summarise Karlson designs in a non-mathematical nutshell? I have read a few articles on the web about them, but still remain puzzled about their mode of operation? They seem to depend on broad tuning combined with aperiodic damping and a bit of frequency-dependent diffraction effects. Unfortunately the maths I've seen means very little to me. :-(
The K design appeals because of construction ease and relative compactness--especially for bass use. How do K bass units match with OB widerange? I have a couple of vintage 12" bass drivers that I thought might work in K cabinets as bass support for 8" OB wide-range drivers.
I welcome your comments both positive and negative re: my suggested use.
Ozziozzi
I hope this is the thread to post Karlson questions.
Can someone please summarise Karlson designs in a non-mathematical nutshell? I have read a few articles on the web about them, but still remain puzzled about their mode of operation? They seem to depend on broad tuning combined with aperiodic damping and a bit of frequency-dependent diffraction effects. Unfortunately the maths I've seen means very little to me. :-(
The K design appeals because of construction ease and relative compactness--especially for bass use. How do K bass units match with OB widerange? I have a couple of vintage 12" bass drivers that I thought might work in K cabinets as bass support for 8" OB wide-range drivers.
I welcome your comments both positive and negative re: my suggested use.
Ozziozzi
Thanks for starting the thread, Freddi!
I like Karlson's for two reasons: they sound better than they have any right to, and what I like most of all, they drive the theory/simulation guys completely nuts. I've never heard 'em full-range, but the bass has a quality all its own - the TP video makes the point!
Thanks for all the links, much appreciated.
I like Karlson's for two reasons: they sound better than they have any right to, and what I like most of all, they drive the theory/simulation guys completely nuts. I've never heard 'em full-range, but the bass has a quality all its own - the TP video makes the point!
Thanks for all the links, much appreciated.
Freddi, In the full range section there is A thread " need help with new horn". Part way down there is a response with a link to "Pepperhorn" with the small VB3N speakers. I don't have the money but I feel if this was turned upside down with the two speakers mounted on the diagonal piece at the horn mouth and a slot put all the way , or most of the way up that face, this could be a way to find out if the Karlson had more to offer. Put the karlson slot on the side where the horn mouth is, instead of the mouth, and make that the front. The orientation is right to keep the wide part of the mouth down near the floor.
jamikl
jamikl
hahaha Lynn - - yeah - I've seen Karlson reduce cone excursion - to ~1/2 or less than that of reflex plus put out more power and lower distortion than some pipehorn - hope you mended pretty well
Sinewave 32Hz mixed 1:1 with 160Hz Beta 15cx in K15 vs reflex of ~same volume an dtuning as rear chamber
a distributive vent as might muck with the lower F's harmonic distortrion depending on placement below passband but still have lower sideband - ? - maybe case dependent
hi Jamikl - not srue waht'd one would get -- maybe cross between Karlson and tapped horn? - it'd have indrect sound - Carl's K10 has only about 7/4 cubic foot rear chamber and don't think is pipehorn like (?)
inverted pepperhorn
heres a guess side-view at one of Carl's earlier K10 - it would have a quarter-ellipse reflector panel merge into a ~10 degree cant port panel
might be too much rear chamber -?
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/1337/maybelikeyb1.jpg
Sinewave 32Hz mixed 1:1 with 160Hz Beta 15cx in K15 vs reflex of ~same volume an dtuning as rear chamber
a distributive vent as might muck with the lower F's harmonic distortrion depending on placement below passband but still have lower sideband - ? - maybe case dependent
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
hi Jamikl - not srue waht'd one would get -- maybe cross between Karlson and tapped horn? - it'd have indrect sound - Carl's K10 has only about 7/4 cubic foot rear chamber and don't think is pipehorn like (?)
inverted pepperhorn
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
heres a guess side-view at one of Carl's earlier K10 - it would have a quarter-ellipse reflector panel merge into a ~10 degree cant port panel
might be too much rear chamber -?
http://img507.imageshack.us/img507/1337/maybelikeyb1.jpg
I forgot to mention that Karlson open-ended waveguide slotted tubes internal or on top are very good with Karlson coupler.
an external tube would present less "reverb" than being place inside the coupler. Karlson's X15 1.875" external type tube had a slotted pre-waveguide. On my limted testing the diameter jump created a 2K2Hz notch. It sounds pretyt good.
Walter Zint'z K-tube for Transylvania Power Co. was ~5.3" long and had a 2 degree downwards sidwall taper - its very good and smooth from ~1K5Hz up with B&C.
a typical 2-way 18" K might look like
(21.5"W x 20"Dx32"H)
an external tube would present less "reverb" than being place inside the coupler. Karlson's X15 1.875" external type tube had a slotted pre-waveguide. On my limted testing the diameter jump created a 2K2Hz notch. It sounds pretyt good.
Walter Zint'z K-tube for Transylvania Power Co. was ~5.3" long and had a 2 degree downwards sidwall taper - its very good and smooth from ~1K5Hz up with B&C.
a typical 2-way 18" K might look like
(21.5"W x 20"Dx32"H)
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
Hey Freddy you stealin my thoughts...
that drawing is exactly what I was thinking about !!! Cool. I had thought that a 1/4 wave line could be used and design it like a TAP to get extra load on the driver and use a set of Karlson tapers. I like to foreshorten my tapers rather than use the standard radial approach, I like to have the taper flair out to the cabinet sides and have the whole thing stop short of the top of the driver so it can radiate directly into the room. I found that dealt with echo effects pretty much. Regards Moray James.
that drawing is exactly what I was thinking about !!! Cool. I had thought that a 1/4 wave line could be used and design it like a TAP to get extra load on the driver and use a set of Karlson tapers. I like to foreshorten my tapers rather than use the standard radial approach, I like to have the taper flair out to the cabinet sides and have the whole thing stop short of the top of the driver so it can radiate directly into the room. I found that dealt with echo effects pretty much. Regards Moray James.
By the way, I'm completely open to trying the new OB with Karlson bass - different parts of the spectrum require different rules, so completely dissimilar approaches in the 20~200 Hz, 200 Hz~2 kHz, and 2 kHz on up work just fine for me.
And "sounding good" trumps theory any day of the week - as that "other" thread shows, we're getting all kinds of weird discrepancies between theoretical models, a whole bunch of contradictory measurements (depending where the microphone is placed), and the way it actually sounds in a room. You think something as dumb and obvious as a simple flat panel would be completely analyzed by now. Not so, it seems.
And "sounding good" trumps theory any day of the week - as that "other" thread shows, we're getting all kinds of weird discrepancies between theoretical models, a whole bunch of contradictory measurements (depending where the microphone is placed), and the way it actually sounds in a room. You think something as dumb and obvious as a simple flat panel would be completely analyzed by now. Not so, it seems.
Lynn Olson said:
Lynn, this is how I used the Karlsons at almost the same exact crossover points with my Rosie Klam system. I used the PHL 15 in Klams up tp 250, PHL 10' up to 2k in an open baffle (or twin Audax PR170's tp 3.5K, and with the 10 a Heil dipole AMT (Eminence APT80 in MTM with Audax )
To achieve better sound in the bass with an open baffle I found six HE tens per channel are required. I'm in the process now of loading the back of the open baffle six/10's array with a Karlson Slot Chamber. A hybrid of sorts - it worked well with some open baffle 21's in another project. Dipoles sound great in my room. For 200 up I'm using a Bag End 10" coaxial with a Emilar 175 1" compression driver. It's out of this world.
ROSIE KLAMS:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I like K-tube HF lens a lot. If put inside a bass coupler then the considerable side firing components mix into the coupler's upper half and front exit is carrying the "direct" components. A tube on top like Walter Zintz's "The Tube" for Transylvania Power CO. has a beautiful sound on cymblas, harpsichord, etc. 10 cents of pvc pipe cut with a half-ellipse slot will fake "The Tube"
stub on this thinwall 1" pvc tube probably didn't do much and can be omitted
the first few inches of a K's slot seem critical to how they sound/play.---a small wad of polyfil in the first inch or so of slot can alter the apparent HF, speed and "reverb"
a lot of damping
some folks including Exemplar have tuned K15 down low and boosted ~per 6th order type - I only tried it one night as a mono kluge - very nice with theatre organ
Fb~28Hz with 416
(btw -Carl applies Leach transform to vented and sealed coupler)
here's a short post with a couple examples of impedance graphs looking at the 3rd impedance peak - I'm looking for coupled cavity peaking around the 3rd Z peak (if vented)
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=115688
sketch of adding a simple cavity - rear volume about 80-85 liter Ken Lenman came up with an idea to use a tapered line for the front - I think it might be shortened to a tapered stub - - getting it right in the 1st place might alleviate this although keeping height down seems good
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8987/ha18capwjpg1comn6.jpg
1/24 octave 0-45-60 off with 18" woofer (lost S/N on bottom)- a K might already be off axis by its baffle tilt depending on microphone perpective
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7577/6caponoff2m24thdn9.jpg
stub on this thinwall 1" pvc tube probably didn't do much and can be omitted
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
the first few inches of a K's slot seem critical to how they sound/play.---a small wad of polyfil in the first inch or so of slot can alter the apparent HF, speed and "reverb"
a lot of damping
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
some folks including Exemplar have tuned K15 down low and boosted ~per 6th order type - I only tried it one night as a mono kluge - very nice with theatre organ
Fb~28Hz with 416
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
(btw -Carl applies Leach transform to vented and sealed coupler)
here's a short post with a couple examples of impedance graphs looking at the 3rd impedance peak - I'm looking for coupled cavity peaking around the 3rd Z peak (if vented)
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=hug&n=115688
sketch of adding a simple cavity - rear volume about 80-85 liter Ken Lenman came up with an idea to use a tapered line for the front - I think it might be shortened to a tapered stub - - getting it right in the 1st place might alleviate this although keeping height down seems good
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/8987/ha18capwjpg1comn6.jpg
1/24 octave 0-45-60 off with 18" woofer (lost S/N on bottom)- a K might already be off axis by its baffle tilt depending on microphone perpective
http://img90.imageshack.us/img90/7577/6caponoff2m24thdn9.jpg
Brett said:
Hello,
Three high two wide, closely spaced and compact yet massive. Easy to Karlsonize - Madison Warrior 16 ohm 10's wired in parallel. One impedance resonance peak at 10 ohm - best driven with a good SS bass amp like my Crown K2. The coupler will go on the back behind the bass only. Probably will be listening to the OB Klam version in a couple of weeks. been busy remodeling the home maybe longer
Lynn Olson said:
My thoughts exactly, including thanks to Freddi.
As my first system, I had the 15 inch Karlson, with a 12 inch FR Norelco speaker (with a whizzer cone). My dad took me to the Manhattan audio district, later wholly replaced by the World Trade Center, in 1957. Airex (one of the great early HiFi emporia, next door to the downtown Leonard's) had all their speakers/drivers in Karlson enclosures, an impressive sight indeed, lined mostly towards the ceiling of their second floor showroom.
Nice bright sound, good bass, not tubby... at least for the time. Drove it with a Stromberg-Carlson 6L6GC amp, with continuously variable record equalization (separately for crossover and rolloff), with a separate feedback winding, a smart move a bit like the Macintoshes
Later I installed a Stephens Tru-Sonic 150W and an Electrovoice horn tweeter, for the improvements you'd expect. (Anybody want to buy that woofer... a joy to eye and ear, even today.)
Paul Klipsh sent me his frequency test on a Karlson. He labeled it something like "multi-resonant speaker cabinet." A great joker.
K slot phase response?
A few days ago I was listening to my 'K-slotted pipes', which I use as 'HT'. Essentially these are a 2.4M TL with with K slotted opening, 6" PVC pipe with baffle down the middle. I don't listen to these very often, not a great movie buff.
These give very good bottom end for a 4" driver, but there's a kind of sound in the mids which made me wonder about the phase characteristics of the K-slot. (I've got this vertical, opening upwards).
Freddy's given us heaps of info on the FR, and I think we can say that thanks to him its general characteristics are understood, but I wonder if any studies have been made of phase in Karlsons?
Cheers,
Pete McK
A few days ago I was listening to my 'K-slotted pipes', which I use as 'HT'. Essentially these are a 2.4M TL with with K slotted opening, 6" PVC pipe with baffle down the middle. I don't listen to these very often, not a great movie buff.
These give very good bottom end for a 4" driver, but there's a kind of sound in the mids which made me wonder about the phase characteristics of the K-slot. (I've got this vertical, opening upwards).
Freddy's given us heaps of info on the FR, and I think we can say that thanks to him its general characteristics are understood, but I wonder if any studies have been made of phase in Karlsons?
Cheers,
Pete McK
hey Pete - do you belong to the Karlson forum? - maybe someone will run ARTA
http://gainclone.com/Karlson/index.php?board=1.0
http://gainclone.com/Karlson/index.php?board=1.0
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.