From what I can gather, it's a known problem and one of the things being addressed ready for the next run. It hasn't occured to all the drivers (mine seem to be fine). One of the perils of going from relatively small batch production of the JX53 to longer production runs on the JXR6, I guess. If the driver is leaking, get in touch with the Jordan distributor and they should be able to sort or replace it, I'd have thought.
Colin, I have already done as you suggested and did contact the distributor a few months back. The replacement drivers suffered the same fate. Maybe something is happening in the shipping process from China to the US. The last pair of replacement drivers received was bench tested for a whole day to ensure leak free status. I hope to return the 4 drivers I currently have once the new units are available. I assume the distributor I purchased these from will agree to this request. They have been really great to deal with by the way.
Aside from the leaking fluid, I really like this new driver. I have been playing around with a new design the past couple of day. I will post more on this when I have more data, but here is a short summary.
JXR6 in a 2 liter cabinet active crossover to a Vifa PL14WJ09-04 in a ported 6 liter cabinet. Both of these cabinets are leftovers from previous projects. Should the active crossover around 250 Hz or so prove effective, I will then build one cabinet with a sealed compartment for the Jordan with a volume of about 1 liter and the Vifa will get about 5 liters. Bass response will still be limited with this design (I assume an F3 of about 60 Hz), but my main goal is small monitor speakers for my PC. I will also bi-amp these via the 41 Hz Amp 6.
I have racked my brain looking for a match for the new Jordan that fits my design goals. The Vifa PL line at 4 ohms appears to be the best on paper so far. I would love to hear from others who have experience with the new Jordan if they think a near field setup is really realistic. I have my doubts, but am still hopeful. Currently, it is really hard for me to test my designs actively in my office without additional amps.
Lastly, can anyone comment on PC DSP type crossovers and weather these would prove equal/better than traditional passive/active setups?
Note: the photo is the speaker line up the PL14/JXR6 will be compared against.
Aside from the leaking fluid, I really like this new driver. I have been playing around with a new design the past couple of day. I will post more on this when I have more data, but here is a short summary.
JXR6 in a 2 liter cabinet active crossover to a Vifa PL14WJ09-04 in a ported 6 liter cabinet. Both of these cabinets are leftovers from previous projects. Should the active crossover around 250 Hz or so prove effective, I will then build one cabinet with a sealed compartment for the Jordan with a volume of about 1 liter and the Vifa will get about 5 liters. Bass response will still be limited with this design (I assume an F3 of about 60 Hz), but my main goal is small monitor speakers for my PC. I will also bi-amp these via the 41 Hz Amp 6.
I have racked my brain looking for a match for the new Jordan that fits my design goals. The Vifa PL line at 4 ohms appears to be the best on paper so far. I would love to hear from others who have experience with the new Jordan if they think a near field setup is really realistic. I have my doubts, but am still hopeful. Currently, it is really hard for me to test my designs actively in my office without additional amps.
Lastly, can anyone comment on PC DSP type crossovers and weather these would prove equal/better than traditional passive/active setups?
Note: the photo is the speaker line up the PL14/JXR6 will be compared against.
Attachments
Yes, I would have thought the dealer would replace with the new batch if there is a problem. I suspect someone in production may be getting over-enthusiastic with the ferrofluid.
The Vifa design sounds good. As its for nearfield, you could probably push the x/over lower if you wanted to and maybe treat the JXR6 to its own enclosure mounted on top of the Vifa's. BTW, I keep meaning to look at the Vifa line-up - as they make the JX92, I feel there ought to be a good bass unit there somewhere for the JXR6.
Meanwhile, if used into corners I'm finding the 6 quite good on its own - it begins to tail off below 120Hz in my 2.4 litre enclosures and drops like a stone below 80Hz, but the bass isn't bad. None of the false fat bass hump some small monitors exhibit.
The Vifa design sounds good. As its for nearfield, you could probably push the x/over lower if you wanted to and maybe treat the JXR6 to its own enclosure mounted on top of the Vifa's. BTW, I keep meaning to look at the Vifa line-up - as they make the JX92, I feel there ought to be a good bass unit there somewhere for the JXR6.
Meanwhile, if used into corners I'm finding the 6 quite good on its own - it begins to tail off below 120Hz in my 2.4 litre enclosures and drops like a stone below 80Hz, but the bass isn't bad. None of the false fat bass hump some small monitors exhibit.
Hardman,
My earlier posts cover my experiences with using the JXR6 for near field setup.
In summary:
- These drivers are fine for near field, they provide very delicate highs that I have not heard with other full range drivers
- I have swapped out the AMP3 (which died!) with an AMP6, and the 4 ohms of the JXR6 and nearfield listening mean the AMP6 is ample to drive these speakers.
- I cross these over at 120Hz to a subwoofer located nearby (Peerless XLR) and the subwoofer is needed to provide body to the monitors which drop off suddenly below 100Hz.
- I use an active analog crossover which works fine, however it is possible to do this in the digital domain with the PC, but you need a quality (pro) soundcard, possibly modified to remove coupling caps and the right DSP software to better a good active analog crossover. I have tried to equalise the speaker response using the digital crossover in Foobar but find it adds some distortion (probably because I have to boost some frequencies that may clip on certain tracks).
- Ideally you would want to cutover the JXR6 a little higher, say 150Hz, however with a subwoofer any more than 120Hz especially if the subwoofer cant be located close to the monitors will make the bass too directional.
- Personally for PC monitors having the woofer in the same cabinet would make it too bulky. You could also use a linkwitz transform to "force" a smaller woofer/cabinet to go lower than it conventionally would. However you need a quality driver and a powerful amp (eg. AMP1 bridged) to ensure the forced bass does not distort for bass lines at higher listening levels.
- Using a ported bass design for a woofer would help get lower bass in a smaller cabinet however this is not recommended as the JXR6 usually runs in a sealed cabinet and the drivers wont be as well match if you mix bass drivers with ported (woofer) & sealed (JXR6) designs.
- I have been playing around with measuring the nearfield response of these drivers and have found that they do need to be toed in to ensure a flat frequency response (they are designed to work like this).
- Another peice of learning for me is that I have tried digital room correction to equalise the speaker & the room interactions, and I did not like the result, at least for nearfield. I gather the room interaction is less important for nearfield listening as the driver is better coupled with your ear as it is physically close and there are nearfield effects (eg. PC monitor, desk) that react with the sound differently in the nearfield situation compared to normal far field listening that cannot be so easily corrected with DRC.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Dean
My earlier posts cover my experiences with using the JXR6 for near field setup.
In summary:
- These drivers are fine for near field, they provide very delicate highs that I have not heard with other full range drivers
- I have swapped out the AMP3 (which died!) with an AMP6, and the 4 ohms of the JXR6 and nearfield listening mean the AMP6 is ample to drive these speakers.
- I cross these over at 120Hz to a subwoofer located nearby (Peerless XLR) and the subwoofer is needed to provide body to the monitors which drop off suddenly below 100Hz.
- I use an active analog crossover which works fine, however it is possible to do this in the digital domain with the PC, but you need a quality (pro) soundcard, possibly modified to remove coupling caps and the right DSP software to better a good active analog crossover. I have tried to equalise the speaker response using the digital crossover in Foobar but find it adds some distortion (probably because I have to boost some frequencies that may clip on certain tracks).
- Ideally you would want to cutover the JXR6 a little higher, say 150Hz, however with a subwoofer any more than 120Hz especially if the subwoofer cant be located close to the monitors will make the bass too directional.
- Personally for PC monitors having the woofer in the same cabinet would make it too bulky. You could also use a linkwitz transform to "force" a smaller woofer/cabinet to go lower than it conventionally would. However you need a quality driver and a powerful amp (eg. AMP1 bridged) to ensure the forced bass does not distort for bass lines at higher listening levels.
- Using a ported bass design for a woofer would help get lower bass in a smaller cabinet however this is not recommended as the JXR6 usually runs in a sealed cabinet and the drivers wont be as well match if you mix bass drivers with ported (woofer) & sealed (JXR6) designs.
- I have been playing around with measuring the nearfield response of these drivers and have found that they do need to be toed in to ensure a flat frequency response (they are designed to work like this).
- Another peice of learning for me is that I have tried digital room correction to equalise the speaker & the room interactions, and I did not like the result, at least for nearfield. I gather the room interaction is less important for nearfield listening as the driver is better coupled with your ear as it is physically close and there are nearfield effects (eg. PC monitor, desk) that react with the sound differently in the nearfield situation compared to normal far field listening that cannot be so easily corrected with DRC.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Dean
Mark Fenlon mentioned they've purchased a micro-pipette to precisely meter the ferrofluid in all future production. Apparently the spiderless design makes it easier to overexcurse the driver and cause the fluid to weep out the cone. Also the reason Ted recommend a sealed box to keep the driver from excursing to the limit of its Xmech.
With the 4 driver line array in a sealed box, playing quite loud I haven't seen any fluid come out (yet).
Brian
Been playing around with the location of the speakers on the desk (separation and toe in).
Interestingly the best sound as well as measured frequency response happens when the speaker separation distance is the same as the distance from a speaker to my ear, and the speaker toe in is such that the drivers cross just in front of my head. Intuitively I'd expect that the soundstage would collapse with such a large toe in, however the centre image is much more solid and the soundstage expands past the speaker and the depth of sound improves.
I have also been playing with electronic equalisation to try to flatten out the frequency response, and my observations is that once the frequency response is reasonably flat by adjusting speaker location (+-3dB) then the electronic equalisation does not make much difference except to slightly adjust the timbre of voices. When running a sweep, I can hear some distortion caused by the electronic equalisation (foobar 2000) so I'll leave it turned off.
If I was to characterise the "voice" of this setup its that the mid range is a little forward (eg. for voices) and mid bass is a little weak, however the bass is warm (subwoofer) and the highs are smooth and well articulated (the strength of the JXR6 in my opinion).
Regards,
Dean
Interestingly the best sound as well as measured frequency response happens when the speaker separation distance is the same as the distance from a speaker to my ear, and the speaker toe in is such that the drivers cross just in front of my head. Intuitively I'd expect that the soundstage would collapse with such a large toe in, however the centre image is much more solid and the soundstage expands past the speaker and the depth of sound improves.
I have also been playing with electronic equalisation to try to flatten out the frequency response, and my observations is that once the frequency response is reasonably flat by adjusting speaker location (+-3dB) then the electronic equalisation does not make much difference except to slightly adjust the timbre of voices. When running a sweep, I can hear some distortion caused by the electronic equalisation (foobar 2000) so I'll leave it turned off.
If I was to characterise the "voice" of this setup its that the mid range is a little forward (eg. for voices) and mid bass is a little weak, however the bass is warm (subwoofer) and the highs are smooth and well articulated (the strength of the JXR6 in my opinion).
Regards,
Dean
deandob said:
What do you mean by: "the soundstage expands past the speaker"?
I can understand that air volume and recorded sidewall reflections may expand the "space" of the recording past the speakers (i.e. left of left speaker and right of right speaker). I've heard that happen before. However, did imaging (recorded direct sound like instruments) ever appear left of the left speaker or right of the right speaker with a recording that didn't have something like Qsound?
If not try it with no "toe-in", (or "toe-out" the speaker from its current position the amount you have them rotated inward from your axis), and then adjust the speakers seperation again (..though remember where they currently are that sounds so good
)Scott,
Yes, I am able to hear instruments that appear to come from further left of the left speaker and further right. Not by a huge amount, but it gives the impression that the speakers are further separated and that the sound wraps around you.
I am using a class-D amp which tends to accentuate the soundstage (which I like). This effect is something that I notice that differenciates a very well setup system from the typical hi-fi. It is possible that I am listening to reflections, and when I study the frequency measurements of this setup I do see the combing effects of reflections, however it is pleasing.
I am surprised that having these speakers/drivers with so much toe-in would sound so good, although at the start of the thread others more experienced did mention that the drivers were designed for toe-in.
The speaker location does significantly affect both the apparent sound quality as well as the frequency response, at least for near field listening on a desk, and is worth playing with different positions. Another benefit is that mediocre recordings also sound better (more listenable/enjoyable) when the speakers are in an optimum location.
I have also worked out how to setup the software equaliser so that it does not distort the signal. This took a bit of investigation and is only really useful if you have decent measuring equipment. By measuring the frequency response in the sweet spot (there is only one spot when you are sitting at a desk!) you can correct for the room & speaker together. To get the software equaliser working I had to apply minimal boost & reduce the digital volume by the same amount as the boost. I also found that its better not to go overboard by trying to remove every peak/trough, and you can apply more attenuation than boost. The end result of the equalisation is that voices become warmer (as the mid bass is stronger) and the mid range forwardness disappears.
I think I'm pretty much done with this system. Hopefully the findings in this thread will be useful to others looking to use the JXR6 (or similar) for desktop speakers.
Now to sit back & enjoy the music.
Regards,
Dean
Yes, I am able to hear instruments that appear to come from further left of the left speaker and further right. Not by a huge amount, but it gives the impression that the speakers are further separated and that the sound wraps around you.
I am using a class-D amp which tends to accentuate the soundstage (which I like). This effect is something that I notice that differenciates a very well setup system from the typical hi-fi. It is possible that I am listening to reflections, and when I study the frequency measurements of this setup I do see the combing effects of reflections, however it is pleasing.
I am surprised that having these speakers/drivers with so much toe-in would sound so good, although at the start of the thread others more experienced did mention that the drivers were designed for toe-in.
The speaker location does significantly affect both the apparent sound quality as well as the frequency response, at least for near field listening on a desk, and is worth playing with different positions. Another benefit is that mediocre recordings also sound better (more listenable/enjoyable) when the speakers are in an optimum location.
I have also worked out how to setup the software equaliser so that it does not distort the signal. This took a bit of investigation and is only really useful if you have decent measuring equipment. By measuring the frequency response in the sweet spot (there is only one spot when you are sitting at a desk!) you can correct for the room & speaker together. To get the software equaliser working I had to apply minimal boost & reduce the digital volume by the same amount as the boost. I also found that its better not to go overboard by trying to remove every peak/trough, and you can apply more attenuation than boost. The end result of the equalisation is that voices become warmer (as the mid bass is stronger) and the mid range forwardness disappears.
I think I'm pretty much done with this system. Hopefully the findings in this thread will be useful to others looking to use the JXR6 (or similar) for desktop speakers.
Now to sit back & enjoy the music.
Regards,
Dean
deandob said:
WOW! I've never heard a speaker "with toe-in" produce an image out of the driver's boundry (..well, no more than a few inches anyway) - thats a first for me. Recording dependent, I consistently get images that range from a foot to many feet out of the driver's boundry.
Since you have eq.. you might consider the response I provided here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78772&pagenumber=5
The only problem however is that your configuration is in the exteme near-field, and eq.ing the top that much will likely provide at least more "air" - BUT could lead to a "bright" fatiguing sound (..particularly if you don't have substantial low, low freq. reinforcement).
Do you mean you get images many feet out of the driver's boundry when you dont use toe-in?
One big difference between toe-in and straight (at least for near field) is with toe in the centre image is a lot stronger & stable.
I'm only using EQ for bass & mid, I find that treble EQ is not satisfactory and that the treble response is significantly altered by even slight changes in the speaker position & my measurement mic (as expected with combing effects). As long as the average sound level over the treble looks reasonable it should be OK. Also a bit of "adjust to taste" is needed!
I will try reducing the stuffing in my 5l enclosure, as I was quite concerned with back radiation the cabinet may be overstuffed. I used 45 degree timber strips as "deflectors" for the back radiation which should help considerably so I'll remove some of the stuffing and try it out.
Regards,
Dean
deandob said:
Correct. And its even better with a few degrees of "toe-out" relative to forward firing position. (..again though, there is a fair bit of eq..) Note that when I say I've never heard a speaker with "toe-in" image beyond the driver's boundry.. I meant "toe-in" beyond the listeners axis (or crossing in front of the listener).
Center image stability isn't just a function of horizontal rotation - its also about how close or far apart the drivers are. (..this effects the axis relative to the listener as well.) Pushing the speakers closer together will strengthen center fill.
After you get a base-line measurement - "adjust to taste" is the best method (..provided done with a broad range of your music collection).
If you are concerned about fiber fill effects then consider the material I suggested to Brian here:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78772&pagenumber=3
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