fredex said:
This is the basic misunderstanding in perception. The eyes are not 'important to hearing', I don't think anybody stated that.
What is documented for many, many decades, in simple and more advanced text, and is completely undisputed in neuro-psychology is the following.
Jeesz, where to start. There's so much here. OK. There is no direct connection between the vibrations that impinge on your ear membrane and the final result that pops up in your head: 'I'm hearing this-and-this'. That connection is actually a lot of processing. That processing has several main phases. One phase is the 'exformation' (in contrast to 'information') processing which reduces the several 100kB/sec input stream to your senses to something between 40 and 100 bytes/sec (the data rate varies somewhat between studies, but this is the ballpark) that your conciousness can handle. (I'll skip the way conciousness forms 'symbols' which are your 'perceptions').
Secondly, there is a large comparison process and combination process between this sound input and inputs from other senses, sight, tactile, smell, what have you. As an example, it is no coincidence that when we get sight of, say, a new amp, we often run our hands across the surface to feel the smoothness, and that, combined with the hi-tech glossy paint is just two inputs that in the end will make up our assessment of that amp. We do that unconciously: we use all info we can get to form our opinion and thus run our hands across the surface. These are the kinds of sensory inputs that are combined.
Then the other major input comes from our memory, which creates expectations. For example, if you have been in a car with a friend that stalled underway and had severe problems, that creates a large threshold against buying the same type car, even years later, when you are in the market. Same with sound related perception; if you were at a friends place and you heard a great system with xyz cables, and you get to another place and see the xyz cables, you fully expect that system to be great. You probably would remark: ahh, I see you run xyz cables. Great cables! That not only biases you, but everybody else who respects your opinion.
The last processing type that takes place is a reverse flow of information. For instance, if any of the other inputs give you a reason to expect a smoother bass range, your brain actually reaches out back to your auditive inputs and 'ramps up the gain', so to speak, of the part that takes care of low-freq inputs.
So, the process or perception is a very complex process involving all senses, expectations, memories, in a continuous back-and-fro of signals. And, ohh I forgot: another input comes from your 'body state': how you feel, are you relaxed or tired, elated, whatever.
I fully expect many of you to think: ahh yes, that can be true, but
I clearly hear what I hear, I'm immune. I DO clearly hear it! Well, that's part of the problem why most audiophiles are not interested even to learn about this. It really FEELS like you are clearly hearing what you hear. It is pretty funny to think that when you run your hand across that amp, it changes the way you 'hear' the amp perform. Nevertheless, it is true, as I mentioned, this is undisputed in serious research. The only dispute is the extend of the difference between perception and actual sense input. Again and again it appears that it is even worse than we thought.
Also, there is no reason to feel personally attacked or threatened that you are deluded or mislead or have cloth ears. It's the way we tick. ALL of us. There is only one way out if you want to really know how different two amps sound: try to shut down your other senses. Don't touch that amp, don't ask the brand name, do the test blind. Everything else is by definition subjective and therefore has only validity to YOU and for nobody else. If you don't take care of that, you can have completely opposite opinions on an amp and both are 'right' and 'wrong' at the same time.
Jan Didden
For that one guy out there who thinks that maybe there is something to that perception stuff, some entry-level reading:
Sway: The Irresistible Pull of Irrational Behavior, by Ori Brafman and Rom Brafman;
A Mind of Its Own: How Your Brain Distorts and Deceives, by Cordelia Fine;
I Am a Strange Loop, by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Jan Didden
Sway: The Irresistible Pull of Irrational Behavior, by Ori Brafman and Rom Brafman;
A Mind of Its Own: How Your Brain Distorts and Deceives, by Cordelia Fine;
I Am a Strange Loop, by Douglas R. Hofstadter.
Jan Didden
janneman said:
Although I agree that the physical looks of equipment are also important, it is a generalisation to say that it influence what you hear. I've listened to and compared several pieces of equipment with great expectations based on name, looks, claims etc. and found their sound quality lacking. Also, I must say that I would not buy a piece of equipment that sound good but with poor build quality, not that I can think of any.
With these generalisations, I guess Michael Shumacher was just lucky, everybody could have won the title seven times.
André
janneman said:
When I try any piece of gear for my audio setup, say an interconnect, I choose it by comparing it blindly to other interconnect(s), in the same physical, mental and emotional conditions. I listen do different interconnects, not knowing which one is connected at any given time, and choose the one that sounds best to me.
Also, I couldn't care less about the looks of any piece of my audio setup.
So, according to what you know, do I delude myself?
Joshua_G said:
Joshua, I only tried to explain that the opinion you form after listening to a component or cable is formed by a fusion of many inputs, of which the sound vibrations getting into your ear are only one.
It is very unlikely that you "choose it by comparing it blindly to other interconnect(s), in the same physical, mental and emotional conditions" because you are not even interested in it, so why should you even worry or be interested in your mental and emotional conditions?
Jan Didden
Andre Visser said:
No it is not. Those looks are one factor among others that determine your final judgement. The fact that you can decide that a good looking amp sounds bad doesn't invalidate that, of course.
One major problem with these issues is that we don't know how we form our opinion, it is a very unconcious process. If you think about it for a few moments, you realise that you have no idea how you 'hear': a sound just kind of pops up you head, and you assume that it is a exact copy of the air vibrations out there.
Jan Didden
In the situation I described – how all other inputs are different from one component to another?
In the situation I described, there is nothing that changes my mental and emotional conditions between listening to one component and another. Whether I'm interested in those conditions or not, they are same, unchanged, in any particular comparative listening session. So, I hear differences between different, say interconnects, while in the same mental and emotional state.
Anyhow, the entire matter of audio setup for me is to enjoy music – the best I can, given to inherent limitations of reproduction system compared to live music and within the limits of my budget.
Yes, mental and emotional conditions affect the process of enjoying music. So? What are the implications of that fact on me? Some people may choose to study those phenomena. I prefer to go on enjoying music. I choose to study other disciplines, like audio amplifiers design. However, when I test and choose components to my audio setup, I do it by blind tests, so I do know that I choose components by the way they actually sound to me – not by their looks, cost, brand name, others opinions, etc. Of course, I will not test components that are beyond my budget to begin with.
Truthfully, I don't see where you are driving at by the mental and emotional conditions that affect listening to music. What is your point here? That blind tests are invalid? They are valid, the way I do them.
Not in my case, since I couldn't care less about how my audio gear looks.
Well, no one really knows how we hear. We do hear and enjoy music, nevertheless. Also, we do choose audio setups that please us.
On the one hand, no one really knows how we actually hear, while on the other hand, people do enjoy listening to music at their homes. What enable me to enjoy music from my audio setup (without actually knowing how I hear) is also what enables me to choose components to my setup.
BTW, usually I listen to music with my eyes closed.
Then you should write them up in sufficient detail for publication, and on the basis of being able to rewrite the laws of electromagnetism by finding that AC signals are affected by cable direction, prepare yourself for that trip to Stockholm and the million bucks that goes with the Nobel.
For suggesting this, I want 10%.
Joshua_G said:
Oh yes, there's a lot here. You are describing two different things, enjoying music and selecting stuff on the basis of sound difference. I agree fully that enjoying music can be done (is done) without much care of the xact sound quality. I enjoy a good song on the kitchen radio without problems.
Selecting a component on sound differences is different, of course. You then use your perceptive apparatus more in a measurement mode, and to be trustworthy and applicable to other people /other setups it should be done with some formal scientific method and be repeatable. I hope we can agree to that?
BTW Why do you listen to your music with closed eyes?
Jan Didden
SY said:
The way I compare components is straight forward, nothing special about it – I don't know to which of the alternative components I'm listening to at any given time. I didn't invent it, many people do it this way.
As for directionality of cables. Let's go one step back – so far there are no generally accepted measurements that can explain the audible differences between different cables. Actually, what we have here is that the human ears and hearing are the most delicate and accurate measuring tool today, concerning appreciating the quality of audio setup and its components. However, since appreciation of music and audio reproducing gear is given also to personal taste and preferences, it is unlikely that a scientific procedure for discerning the quality of audio gear with the aid of human hearing is feasible.
On the contrary, every verified case where cable differences could be detected has been backed up by measurement.
This does not exactly back up your claim of validity. Do you know what that term means in the context of sensory testing? If so, can you please explain how validity was determined? Todah rabah.
janneman said:
Are you dealing with beliefs here?
One can be aware of changes in mental and emotional disposition without knowing all the details of what may affect such changes.
Actually, no one, including science, know all there is to know about human perception – which is no barrier to the actual perception.
Should I deny my love to animals, for instance, because I don't know everything about what causes this love? Should I stop enjoying listening to music because I don't know everything about what makes me enjoy music?
So, what are you driving at, here?
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