I've heard of folks that play shellacs with a stereo cartridge just so they can choose the better groove wall. They use different size styli to move around too. I wish I knew more about that stuff - from a purely intellectual viewpoint. WAY too lazy to expend all that energy myself. (Glad other folks do it though, love the old blues).
We're an amazingly adaptive species, ain't we?
Thanks,
Chris
Sy,
With respect, as usually you are completely wrong when you try to contradict me.
I was not referring to the majority of high end cartridges, but those that sat in consumer grade Turntables from Japan (e.g. the stuff bought by the 90%). As the people who owned these where the ones who bought the records the record industry tried to sell.
Ciao T
With respect, as usually you are completely wrong when you try to contradict me.
I was not referring to the majority of high end cartridges, but those that sat in consumer grade Turntables from Japan (e.g. the stuff bought by the 90%). As the people who owned these where the ones who bought the records the record industry tried to sell.
Ciao T
Scott,
How does same one find out if a tracing compensator was used? Listen to the LP with both a spherical and a line contact stylus...
And yes, the DL-103, especially the 103R is decent, but very picky about Arms, it want's a non-rigid, heavy old style arm (like old, I mean very old SME's)...
I agree. In terms of Vinyl and how it is played I feel the whole high end industry has lost it's marbels. It is appalling just how much actual knowledge or what really went on during the heydays of Vinyl remains and how even less of it seems to have penetrated the craniums of those from whom 'the scene' gets their information.
There is "perfect" or "best" cartridge, because often different records fundamentally require different stylus shapes to be played back correctly.
Pre Tracing compensator use a mild elliptical stylus is best, with tracing simulator it must be a spherical stylus, modern "audiophile" pressings sound best using a line contact stylus.
Different records may need different EQ's, well into the 1970's and possibly into the 1980's.
Of course, if you only Chad Kasseem's re-issues then you can safely use a line contact stylus and RIAA EQ. Otherwise all bets are off and a turntable with multiple arms and phono with multiple inputs and switchable EQ becomes de rigeur...
Wide rollout was 1968, pilots since 1966.
I am sure there is. But if you do not have reference levels etc. it would be very hard to compensate during playback.
Past that I agree that it is nothing short of amazing that LP Vinyl works at all and even more how well it works. That there is even a debate if LP is preferable to CD (never mind people wo prefer LP) illustrates quite dramatically that it is not so much WHAT you do, but how you do it. There are so many outstanding (sonically) LP's, compared to the percentage of outstanding CD's, though there are real dogs on LP as well on CD...
Ciao T
How does same one find out if a tracing compensator was used? Listen to the LP with both a spherical and a line contact stylus...
And yes, the DL-103, especially the 103R is decent, but very picky about Arms, it want's a non-rigid, heavy old style arm (like old, I mean very old SME's)...
I agree. In terms of Vinyl and how it is played I feel the whole high end industry has lost it's marbels. It is appalling just how much actual knowledge or what really went on during the heydays of Vinyl remains and how even less of it seems to have penetrated the craniums of those from whom 'the scene' gets their information.
There is "perfect" or "best" cartridge, because often different records fundamentally require different stylus shapes to be played back correctly.
Pre Tracing compensator use a mild elliptical stylus is best, with tracing simulator it must be a spherical stylus, modern "audiophile" pressings sound best using a line contact stylus.
Different records may need different EQ's, well into the 1970's and possibly into the 1980's.
Of course, if you only Chad Kasseem's re-issues then you can safely use a line contact stylus and RIAA EQ. Otherwise all bets are off and a turntable with multiple arms and phono with multiple inputs and switchable EQ becomes de rigeur...
Wide rollout was 1968, pilots since 1966.
I am sure there is. But if you do not have reference levels etc. it would be very hard to compensate during playback.
Past that I agree that it is nothing short of amazing that LP Vinyl works at all and even more how well it works. That there is even a debate if LP is preferable to CD (never mind people wo prefer LP) illustrates quite dramatically that it is not so much WHAT you do, but how you do it. There are so many outstanding (sonically) LP's, compared to the percentage of outstanding CD's, though there are real dogs on LP as well on CD...
Ciao T
My new CDP (which you designed) seems to finish its' break in, it sounds fantastic, the most analog-like CDP I ever heard and I love it, it gives me much pleasure listening to music on CDs. Yet, my vinyl records sound way much better. Go figure…
It seem that the art of recording have regressed over the past decades.
Joshua, I agree with you, and I am also trying to upgrade my CD and SACD playback to keep up with what is available, and to at least try to compete with quality vinyl playback.
I have commissioned a custom OPPO Blue Ray player that will be heavily modified even before I get it. We will change the op amps, caps, power supply, etc. It will cost me twice as much as stock, but it should be worth it. Right now, I have a medium priced Sony SACD player that plays DVD and SACD 'OK' and barely plays CD tolerably. I am really sick of listening through those 4558's and coupling caps.
I have commissioned a custom OPPO Blue Ray player that will be heavily modified even before I get it. We will change the op amps, caps, power supply, etc. It will cost me twice as much as stock, but it should be worth it. Right now, I have a medium priced Sony SACD player that plays DVD and SACD 'OK' and barely plays CD tolerably. I am really sick of listening through those 4558's and coupling caps.
Hi,
Thank you for the update. If you can, leave the player on non-stop. The tubes run fairly conservative, so they will not urn out. The older 77 series used to switch only the tubes off but leave the rest running. In the 777 series we re-designed this to be more compliant with the stupid standby power regulations issuing forth from Brussels, so it powers everything down. I find it takes several continuous running until things are at their best...
The CD-77 is another step up, yet I agree even the CD-77 at it's best is still diffrent from a very good LP Setup. I had some people likeing it better, others worse than LP (generally with an AMR Phono of course and Lyra or Ortofon cartridges).
Certainly it seems to have moved into different domains, different areas that seem to have little to do with recordings that convey a real musical event.
In it's own way this a art too, just one I am not well equipped to appreciate, just as I am ill equipped to appreciate the Turner Prize winning work by Damien Hirst, that, I am reliably assured nevertheless represents "high art".
Ciao T
Thank you for the update. If you can, leave the player on non-stop. The tubes run fairly conservative, so they will not urn out. The older 77 series used to switch only the tubes off but leave the rest running. In the 777 series we re-designed this to be more compliant with the stupid standby power regulations issuing forth from Brussels, so it powers everything down. I find it takes several continuous running until things are at their best...
The CD-77 is another step up, yet I agree even the CD-77 at it's best is still diffrent from a very good LP Setup. I had some people likeing it better, others worse than LP (generally with an AMR Phono of course and Lyra or Ortofon cartridges).
Certainly it seems to have moved into different domains, different areas that seem to have little to do with recordings that convey a real musical event.
In it's own way this a art too, just one I am not well equipped to appreciate, just as I am ill equipped to appreciate the Turner Prize winning work by Damien Hirst, that, I am reliably assured nevertheless represents "high art".
Ciao T
Records were developed for spheric styli with 17um radius for stereo and 25 um for mono. Thats why Denon made the DL 103 this way.
The problem ist still the same. Record heads work tangential.
Any Cartridge with a Cantilever works not tangential due the suspension .
So the stylus changes the angle (Phase) with the modulation. Spheric ones do not change the radius if you turn them from left to right or vice versa, but elliptic or whatever does. This creates a non controlled distorsion.
( Only the Decca London and the Myabi works with a complete different kind of Cantilver and try to imitate the cuttinghead movement, but have some other issues). Those distorsions make the specific sound of the most cartridges, which you may like or not. I hate it. And i had a lot of expensive cartdiges until i found that spheric tips works as good as it is possible.
Thats simple physic and the naked truth.
Thats why most cartridge builders simply are lying.
Thats why i insist in spheric tips.
I have the MicroMagic *Magic Diamond* ( apx. 6'000 US$) and the *Silver Spirit* ( apx. (12'000 US$), both with spheric tips. Both track any well cutted record without problems and track 30 Khz easy.
Furthermore the stylus wear is much lesser and allows up to 5'000 hours of use.
The *MD* is on a Goldmund Reference with Straight Toneram T3F in my shop, the Spirit sit onto and FR 64 Steel arm onto an EMT 930 at home.
The EMT sounds mercyless and comes very close to the Mastertape.
They run with 2.3 gramms and need a heavy arm.
For standard budget the DL 103 is a very good choice with a heavy arm.
Tracks well, sounds well.
Dynagroove ( or however it was named) was made to compensate the distorsions of the spheric stylus, not for loudness control.
A spheric stylus creates some distorsions, but the can be calculated prettty much due given geometric character since it is round.
Dr. Shiga from Nippon Columbia did the math work around 1960 and proved the theorie with the spheric styli definitive. Result was the DL 103.
Any ellipse changes the diameter if you turn sideways, thus you no more control.
Long cantilevers have lesser change in angle, thus lesser distorsion, but also lesser output from the motor and more mass. Combined with a non controllable diameter due movement the distorsions varies with modulations. Bad situation.
There is no cartridge with a geometrical layout like a cutting head, thus the spheric tip is the best compromise and dynagroove made it even better.
A spheric stylus creates some distorsions, but the can be calculated prettty much due given geometric character since it is round.
Dr. Shiga from Nippon Columbia did the math work around 1960 and proved the theorie with the spheric styli definitive. Result was the DL 103.
Any ellipse changes the diameter if you turn sideways, thus you no more control.
Long cantilevers have lesser change in angle, thus lesser distorsion, but also lesser output from the motor and more mass. Combined with a non controllable diameter due movement the distorsions varies with modulations. Bad situation.
There is no cartridge with a geometrical layout like a cutting head, thus the spheric tip is the best compromise and dynagroove made it even better.
Thank you, I can and I will.
Next step will be to try various NOS E88CC tubes. I have some by Telefunken, Amperex, Siemens and Tesla.
Well, I cannot afford it, unless some day I'll win the lotary…
Let me say that only vinyl records which are well preserved sound really good. I don't have very many of those.
As for the AMR Phono, I cannot afford it either. I'm going to build a pre-amp, including Phono Stage, after the late Allen Wright's RTPC3C.
My cartridge is ZYX Airy R3S, it seems to be an excellent one and I cannot afford a better one.
Thankyou over the years your comments have proven most enlightening, the day I buy a $12,000 cartridge is not near.
BTW to paraphrase the literature that came with the Telarc Omnidisk... "The horrible distortion you hear is normal for the LP process".
This in reference to the low frequency IMD on the 2K+ HZ 1/3 octave noise bands.
Thank you Scott. My head was spinning faster than a shellac 78 when I saw that price. 12 grand would buy me quite a few season tickets at my local concert hall, or any concert hall. The value for money ratio of extreme high end gear baffles me.
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