Hi,
What if I said it tasted better than other steak?
Where I live now we have very easy access to fresh produce from small independent farms that while not strictly "organic" produce their meat and veg mainly natural, with little artificial fertilisers, weed killers etc, the Animals run around pretty freely. We even make our own fruit juice mostly from fresh fruits.
I can tell you that these produce taste by far superior to generic "mass produced" meat, veg and fruits you can buy in the supermarket and the taste of freshly made Carrott and Orange juice is beyond description, next to the bland and overly sweet Supermarket juice.
Sure, the veggies and fruits do not look supermarket pretty and at first it is disturbing to see your chicken or rabbit killed and butchered right before your eyes, but the taste is worth it. And I find I have more energy and am by far more healthy than I am in old Blighty eating supermarket food...
So, we have a subjective statement here, namely that:
"Mostly organically produced vegetables and fruits, free range or nearly so produced animals meat tastes better than mass produced alternatives found in your local supermarket and are also more healthy."
Should one not make such a statement?
Do we need extensive double blind tests?
I would add that some studies exist that show that organic or nearly organic veggies contain much lower concentrations of chemicals absorbed from the various products that are dumped onto fields, as well ones that show that free range chickens have much lower amounts of fat but greater amounts of Omega 3 than any battery or indoor bird. However those stand independent from my personal observations on the matter.
Ciao T
What if I said it tasted better than other steak?
Where I live now we have very easy access to fresh produce from small independent farms that while not strictly "organic" produce their meat and veg mainly natural, with little artificial fertilisers, weed killers etc, the Animals run around pretty freely. We even make our own fruit juice mostly from fresh fruits.
I can tell you that these produce taste by far superior to generic "mass produced" meat, veg and fruits you can buy in the supermarket and the taste of freshly made Carrott and Orange juice is beyond description, next to the bland and overly sweet Supermarket juice.
Sure, the veggies and fruits do not look supermarket pretty and at first it is disturbing to see your chicken or rabbit killed and butchered right before your eyes, but the taste is worth it. And I find I have more energy and am by far more healthy than I am in old Blighty eating supermarket food...
So, we have a subjective statement here, namely that:
"Mostly organically produced vegetables and fruits, free range or nearly so produced animals meat tastes better than mass produced alternatives found in your local supermarket and are also more healthy."
Should one not make such a statement?
Do we need extensive double blind tests?
I would add that some studies exist that show that organic or nearly organic veggies contain much lower concentrations of chemicals absorbed from the various products that are dumped onto fields, as well ones that show that free range chickens have much lower amounts of fat but greater amounts of Omega 3 than any battery or indoor bird. However those stand independent from my personal observations on the matter.
Ciao T
First underlined part is subjective observation, may be valid for concrete person(s). Second is attempting to be objective claim, and is not generally true, regarding e.g. this year with epidemy in EU. Before consuming this "healthy" meal, it is better to do tests, not unconditionally blind...About the same in audio.
Don't worry Thorsten, I believe you. Why not? It fits my experience. I am not a big food or wine person, but I do enjoy it when I am offered it. It seems to me that a person who is not a hi fi nut, could just enjoy a well put together system, even if owned by someone else, and not feel that they are being 'duped' into thinking that it sounds better than typical.
Decades ago, Brian Cheney and I went to visit Dave Wilson, on his invitation, about once a month to listen to his WAMM system in his own home.
It was GLORIOUS, and we really enjoyed it. Now, what was going on? Brian Cheney made his own loudspeakers, and I could not possibly afford a WAMM. It was just audiophiles enjoying an evening bringing out the best of quality recordings (analog) with an ALL-OUT, even initially laughable attempt to make a high quality loudspeaker that cost THEN about $30,000. Sounded great, though.
Decades ago, Brian Cheney and I went to visit Dave Wilson, on his invitation, about once a month to listen to his WAMM system in his own home.
It was GLORIOUS, and we really enjoyed it. Now, what was going on? Brian Cheney made his own loudspeakers, and I could not possibly afford a WAMM. It was just audiophiles enjoying an evening bringing out the best of quality recordings (analog) with an ALL-OUT, even initially laughable attempt to make a high quality loudspeaker that cost THEN about $30,000. Sounded great, though.
Hi,
I think you mixing up things.
The issue of food safety is as relevant for "organic" products as for non-organic ones. This time it was e-coli in bean-sprouts or some such. Another time it was Dioxine in artificial fats for pig feed and I still remember the Austrian wine that would not freeze in the freezer...
However, this is intentional or accidental POISONING of our food. I was actually deliberately attracting such comments.
However, there are by now extensive studies regarding the various issues around the food we eat in our modern society (including quite graphic ones in China on the effect of Melamine in Milk Powder for infants and the effect of low grade fast on the public health of a nation in the USA) that illustrate my point exceedingly well.
However, if I was penured enough to have to eat supermarket food I would probably also try to rationalise my forced choice as bing the rational and sensible one...
Ciao T
I think you mixing up things.
The issue of food safety is as relevant for "organic" products as for non-organic ones. This time it was e-coli in bean-sprouts or some such. Another time it was Dioxine in artificial fats for pig feed and I still remember the Austrian wine that would not freeze in the freezer...
However, this is intentional or accidental POISONING of our food. I was actually deliberately attracting such comments.
However, there are by now extensive studies regarding the various issues around the food we eat in our modern society (including quite graphic ones in China on the effect of Melamine in Milk Powder for infants and the effect of low grade fast on the public health of a nation in the USA) that illustrate my point exceedingly well.
However, if I was penured enough to have to eat supermarket food I would probably also try to rationalise my forced choice as bing the rational and sensible one...
Ciao T
Our opinions do in fact have validity. Are you calling me a liar? '-) Don't worry, you would not be the first, but only fools call someone a liar without proof.
My opinions are based on MY reality, and I have a bit more audio 'reality' than many here, to talk about. This is because I chose to go into hi fi design many decades ago, and have won awards for my efforts in the field.
If I just made audio designs and they did not gain a quality reputation in the marketplace, then people would have every right to ignore me. Then I would be in the same league as several of my critics who have tried to make audio products and can't understand why they were not seriously accepted in the audio marketplace. Of course, they don't want me to attempt to tell them what they did wrong, because they would rather blame it on advertising by others or insider backstabbing. The truth is that good audio design goes beyond a meter measurement, most of the time, and it is easy to document this. However, it is almost impossible to 'prove' it to a non-believer in audio quality differences. That is the problem.
My opinions are based on MY reality, and I have a bit more audio 'reality' than many here, to talk about. This is because I chose to go into hi fi design many decades ago, and have won awards for my efforts in the field.
If I just made audio designs and they did not gain a quality reputation in the marketplace, then people would have every right to ignore me. Then I would be in the same league as several of my critics who have tried to make audio products and can't understand why they were not seriously accepted in the audio marketplace. Of course, they don't want me to attempt to tell them what they did wrong, because they would rather blame it on advertising by others or insider backstabbing. The truth is that good audio design goes beyond a meter measurement, most of the time, and it is easy to document this. However, it is almost impossible to 'prove' it to a non-believer in audio quality differences. That is the problem.
Thanks. I enjoyed this story. Nice, concrete details that are educational.
If you're a food or beverage producer and are making those claims, yes. Otherwise, you are liable for civil penalties for fraud and false advertising. Ethical companies routinely do controlled sensory analysis both for purposes of R&D and to back up marketing claims. Companies like Bureau Veritas exist specifically to verify those claims- most major retailers here (e.g., Walmart) will not allow products to be sold with claims on the packaging that are not verified by an independent organization like BV in order to avoid such liability.
High end audio is such a tiny niche that it typically flies under the radar.
Hi,
They are simple statements with no express or implied of universality. They are someone saying "in my experience doing A produces B".
I actually elected with the Subject of Organic Food one for which anyone who is minimally familiar with it will not greatly dispute that it is in general more healthy eating that supermarket food and while I am not particular research it is quite widely understood to be the case.
I suspect in many other places such notes as I placed here would have not caused anyone to bat an eyelid.
So why is it that here in this context I must invoke the muthafunkin first amendment and it's respective clauses in european law/constitutions to get someone to accept that I CAN SAY OR WRITE WITHIN CERTAIN BOUNDS anything?
I mean WTF is wrong here, if I may ask?
And anything that is said by some that in a similar nature but regarding audio has a round of persecution after it that would have made McCarthy proud.
Anyway, I consider my point well illustrated and will stop any more seeming off topic excursions.
Ciao T
They are simple statements with no express or implied of universality. They are someone saying "in my experience doing A produces B".
I actually elected with the Subject of Organic Food one for which anyone who is minimally familiar with it will not greatly dispute that it is in general more healthy eating that supermarket food and while I am not particular research it is quite widely understood to be the case.
I suspect in many other places such notes as I placed here would have not caused anyone to bat an eyelid.
So why is it that here in this context I must invoke the muthafunkin first amendment and it's respective clauses in european law/constitutions to get someone to accept that I CAN SAY OR WRITE WITHIN CERTAIN BOUNDS anything?
I mean WTF is wrong here, if I may ask?
And anything that is said by some that in a similar nature but regarding audio has a round of persecution after it that would have made McCarthy proud.
Anyway, I consider my point well illustrated and will stop any more seeming off topic excursions.
Ciao T
hey uncle john! i normally never ever come in here but the opportunity to connect cooking and audio design is just too tempting for me... of course the tired tiny argument over "objective" and subjective is enough to keep me forever away. to use the word "objective" and such a culturally loaded subject like "music" in the same sentence shows a lack of big picture so large as to leave me speechless. but i would like to say one thing that may be relevant: about really great cooking, the kind of cooking that changes your channel... the issue for a really great cook is almost always having a pool of really great eaters. if no one cares for french traditional food, it doesn't make ANY difference how well you do it. you alone. what makes for a good eater? experience. having tasted many different things... in varying contexts and for a range of reasons. and most of all, you might need to love food. yes. to be in a position to appreciate the effort put into making a plate of seafood or root vegetables, you might need to know what is possible, in a most considerate way. music is a cultural practice, not an engineering excercise. on the other hand, the mastery of the technology necessary to make an amazing bouillabaise is considerate. music is not a signal. there is no way to completely "neutralize" the experience of a great plate of food. and who would want to eat it.
hey john, hope all is well!
hey john, hope all is well!
OTOH I can easily find you people that can't stand the taste of grass fed beef and far prefer the hypermarche variety, especially the CO gassing that makes it soooo red.
BTW "organic" is being co-opted by many industrial style growers, when spinach was recalled it was sobering to see that virtually all commercial spinach came from the same place, organic too.
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Yes, you can write or say within certain bounds anything. However, extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
vac
Hi Sy,
So for example this company would be "liable for civil penalties for fraud and false advertising"?
Organic Food | Organic Foods | Benefits Of Organic Food
Then go out and get then, right, evil doers and false marketers they are.
Ciao T
So for example this company would be "liable for civil penalties for fraud and false advertising"?
Organic Food | Organic Foods | Benefits Of Organic Food
Then go out and get then, right, evil doers and false marketers they are.
Ciao T
Hi,
Ahhm, for the US Citizens, where is that written in the US Constitutions and the Amendments? Of for Dutchmen, where in the Dutch Grondwet is it written that I must present evidence to excercise my right to free speech? Being German, I know our laws have no such provisions.
Closer to home here at DIYAudio there also exist laws:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/site-announcements/167561-diyaudio-rules.html
Please point out where it says that I must presented evidence for anything I am saying?
It does say however:
I would argue that demanding people give up their fundamental human right of free speech because they did not present evidence you liked may be construed to fall under the above clause, at least until such a time "The Rules" include one that reads:
"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to be posted with them or otherwise are subject to deletion"
For now there is no such rule and you therefore have no case do demand of anyone to comply with such a principle.
Ciao T
Ahhm, for the US Citizens, where is that written in the US Constitutions and the Amendments? Of for Dutchmen, where in the Dutch Grondwet is it written that I must present evidence to excercise my right to free speech? Being German, I know our laws have no such provisions.
Closer to home here at DIYAudio there also exist laws:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/site-announcements/167561-diyaudio-rules.html
Please point out where it says that I must presented evidence for anything I am saying?
It does say however:
THE RULES said:
I would argue that demanding people give up their fundamental human right of free speech because they did not present evidence you liked may be construed to fall under the above clause, at least until such a time "The Rules" include one that reads:
"extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence to be posted with them or otherwise are subject to deletion"
For now there is no such rule and you therefore have no case do demand of anyone to comply with such a principle.
Ciao T
Golden Ears Special
It seems that Malcolm's little challenge has run its course.
So for those interested, the correct grouping is indeed:
61-232-923 and 7-88-522
A few observations:
I received two correct solutions, from SY and Pano.
I received two other solutions that were partially correct:
61-232-522 (from a member's 10-year old daughter) and 61-88-923
I myself thought that 7 was in one group and 61 and 923 were in the other, which is correct, but I was not able to group the other files before I saw other solutions.
It has been pointed out to me that it is trivially easy to find the correct grouping by, let's say, 'other technical means'. And I do mean trivially easy. I won't tell, because once you know it, it would require heroic honesty NOT to cheat!
Finally, I found it disappointing that none of the self-professed experienced listeners was brave enough to participate in this little exercise.
Although, it stands to reason that many more people actually DID listen but did not trust their ears enough to venture a solution.
Thanks to those who did reply.
jan didden
It seems that Malcolm's little challenge has run its course.
So for those interested, the correct grouping is indeed:
61-232-923 and 7-88-522
A few observations:
I received two correct solutions, from SY and Pano.
I received two other solutions that were partially correct:
61-232-522 (from a member's 10-year old daughter) and 61-88-923
I myself thought that 7 was in one group and 61 and 923 were in the other, which is correct, but I was not able to group the other files before I saw other solutions.
It has been pointed out to me that it is trivially easy to find the correct grouping by, let's say, 'other technical means'. And I do mean trivially easy. I won't tell, because once you know it, it would require heroic honesty NOT to cheat!
Finally, I found it disappointing that none of the self-professed experienced listeners was brave enough to participate in this little exercise.
Although, it stands to reason that many more people actually DID listen but did not trust their ears enough to venture a solution.
Thanks to those who did reply.
jan didden
No. It's curious that you'd think that. But if you do, feel free to grab a law firm and get those writs flying- on your dime.
Steve, I still have them. Would you like me to renumber them and send them to you?
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