AFAIK Jan simply hosted some files from Dr. Hawksford for amusement, your intensity of feeling around this seems misplaced.
i still remember this song from my youth 
Grand Funk Railroad- People, Let's Stop The War (LP) - YouTube
Regards
George
Grand Funk Railroad- People, Let's Stop The War (LP) - YouTube
Regards
George
I'm with you on this, Thorsten. I don't like to be 'challenged' to a listening test that certainly looks like a 'trap'. In fact, Dr. Rod Rees specifically warned me against participating in such tests. I know that several colleagues have fallen into this 'trap', Ivor T did once, and so did John Atkinson, for example. AND we NEVER hear the end of it, you know: 'Golden ear fails objective listening test!'. I have personally consistently stated that I specifically fail such ABX or similar listening tests. I found this out, myself, more than 30 years ago. Yet, I did not let this stop me from making subjectively better audio designs, by following guidelines derived from 'open listening'.
Now let me tell an anecdote about my experience with digital reproduction:
A few years ago at CES, I went by the Chesky booth and bought a vinyl record, 'The Raven' sung by Rebecca Pidgeon. Not having a record player at CES, I decided to listen to my purchase at one of my competitors, in this case, Herron Audio, who was willing to play it. Herron Audio gives us a run for our money, just like Ayre, and they had a pretty good sound system, but NOT a BIG DOLLAR system (more about that, soon). We played a cut on the record, and we were all transfixed! It was just like she was there, and we just kept playing the record through, during show hours, rather than just listen to a single cut. When we reached her version of 'Spanish Harlem' everybody was almost in tears! Well, then I made a mistake. I felt sorry for Keith Herron, because he was working the room and could not get away, so I sold him my copy of the record, at cost, and thought that I would pick up another copy, later, for myself.
Well, I didn't get back to Chesky Records, so at another CES, I tried to get a copy of the vinyl record, and I was told that it was sold out. However, I could pick up a copy of the SACD of the same album, and so I did.
I then took it over to Constellation Audio to listen to my purchase. Here I was using Constellation's digital playback, analog preamp, power amp and a set of $150,000 loudspeakers. This is what I call a 'Big Dollar' setup. I listened to 'Spanish Harlem' and I stated to my boss: 'This is pretty good, but analog is better'. He told me that he had previously done a download of the same song, and as I was prepared to leave, it came on, so I could listen to an even more sophisticated digital rendition of 'Spanish Harlem'. It did, in fact, sound slightly better than the SACD, but the 'emotion' was just not there, compared to the vinyl record.
I took the SACD home, and it sounds better than almost any CD, but not as good as my best records. I stand by my listening opinion, because it works within my design philosophy, and I am still successful using it to design new audio equipment.
Now let me tell an anecdote about my experience with digital reproduction:
A few years ago at CES, I went by the Chesky booth and bought a vinyl record, 'The Raven' sung by Rebecca Pidgeon. Not having a record player at CES, I decided to listen to my purchase at one of my competitors, in this case, Herron Audio, who was willing to play it. Herron Audio gives us a run for our money, just like Ayre, and they had a pretty good sound system, but NOT a BIG DOLLAR system (more about that, soon). We played a cut on the record, and we were all transfixed! It was just like she was there, and we just kept playing the record through, during show hours, rather than just listen to a single cut. When we reached her version of 'Spanish Harlem' everybody was almost in tears! Well, then I made a mistake. I felt sorry for Keith Herron, because he was working the room and could not get away, so I sold him my copy of the record, at cost, and thought that I would pick up another copy, later, for myself.
Well, I didn't get back to Chesky Records, so at another CES, I tried to get a copy of the vinyl record, and I was told that it was sold out. However, I could pick up a copy of the SACD of the same album, and so I did.
I then took it over to Constellation Audio to listen to my purchase. Here I was using Constellation's digital playback, analog preamp, power amp and a set of $150,000 loudspeakers. This is what I call a 'Big Dollar' setup. I listened to 'Spanish Harlem' and I stated to my boss: 'This is pretty good, but analog is better'. He told me that he had previously done a download of the same song, and as I was prepared to leave, it came on, so I could listen to an even more sophisticated digital rendition of 'Spanish Harlem'. It did, in fact, sound slightly better than the SACD, but the 'emotion' was just not there, compared to the vinyl record.
I took the SACD home, and it sounds better than almost any CD, but not as good as my best records. I stand by my listening opinion, because it works within my design philosophy, and I am still successful using it to design new audio equipment.
Hi,
I remember another song from my youth.
Venceremos Working Week - YouTube
Un mundo que se abre
Esta por hacerse
De santiago a rio
Se espera el momento
Se encontraran
Se nombraran
Con retratos en alto
Seas vidas negadas
Como la nueva pasión
De un amor que despierta
Deseo que brilla
Como el orgullo de crear
Una nación que respira
De ciudades a campos
De hogar en hogar
La vida en suspenso
Un respiro fragante
De calor y amistad
Durmiendo como amantes
Compañeros encubiertos
Lograremos un gran final
No nos moverán
Sabiendo que vamos a vencer
Y venceremos
Y venceremos
Ciao T
i still remember this song from my youth
Grand Funk Railroad- People, Let's Stop The War (LP) - YouTube
I remember another song from my youth.
Venceremos Working Week - YouTube
Un mundo que se abre
Esta por hacerse
De santiago a rio
Se espera el momento
Se encontraran
Se nombraran
Con retratos en alto
Seas vidas negadas
Como la nueva pasión
De un amor que despierta
Deseo que brilla
Como el orgullo de crear
Una nación que respira
De ciudades a campos
De hogar en hogar
La vida en suspenso
Un respiro fragante
De calor y amistad
Durmiendo como amantes
Compañeros encubiertos
Lograremos un gran final
No nos moverán
Sabiendo que vamos a vencer
Y venceremos
Y venceremos
Ciao T
Did you chose the "infinite" load for the cartridge? Mr. Herron calls it one of his special features. I wonder if he knew Alexander Abian? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Abian
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Understandable, but this is legit. There are really two versions of the file, 3 copies of each. SY and I sorted them identically, it seems. I'll put money on the fact that we were right.
Hi John,
The thing is, I KNOW it's trap.
Maybe growing up in a country where reacting positively to certain challenges by the governments "agents provocateurs" would get you a few of hard labour (and trust me - they meant "hard labour", the disability rate at the infamous "Das Gelbe Elend" Gulag in Bautsen in my days was around 50% and much worse in the really bad days, the terminal casualty rate was around 15% in my days, in the 1950's it was over 50%) did it's part.
So, perhaps I got "too much of a nose for being set up". Or maybe a mild case of paranoia. I had my own run in's with that regime and I paid my dues. I guess it did not help in being trusting the good intentions of those that challenge me.
I just will not stand for slight variations of the same tactics. Nor will I take it lying down, cattle prod up certain orifices. If this sound harsh, that's life.
Past that, I found most of the time, the best from SACD failed to meet the bet of CD and DSD as recording format (using dCS studio gear) was marginally better than 24/48 PCM but lacking against 96/24 PCM in a recording studio situation, compared to the mike-feed.
Of course, most recording microphones impose such an extreme barrier on dynamic range and bandwidth anyway, CD done well (meaning mastering that maximises the CD's abilities AND playback that maximises the CD's ability) is rarely the real problem, so that debating CD vs. SACD. vs. HD PCM is mostly academic.
That said, while I would release recordings without hesitation on CD, I would never try recording original material in 16/44. I would, though, also no longer use an 8-Track Otari halve inch system...
In the end, music, sounds, audio and the related issues have been and remained an obsession with me, since around four or so decades ago. And I do remain amused and interested.
Ciao T
The thing is, I KNOW it's trap.
Maybe growing up in a country where reacting positively to certain challenges by the governments "agents provocateurs" would get you a few of hard labour (and trust me - they meant "hard labour", the disability rate at the infamous "Das Gelbe Elend" Gulag in Bautsen in my days was around 50% and much worse in the really bad days, the terminal casualty rate was around 15% in my days, in the 1950's it was over 50%) did it's part.
So, perhaps I got "too much of a nose for being set up". Or maybe a mild case of paranoia. I had my own run in's with that regime and I paid my dues. I guess it did not help in being trusting the good intentions of those that challenge me.
I just will not stand for slight variations of the same tactics. Nor will I take it lying down, cattle prod up certain orifices. If this sound harsh, that's life.
Past that, I found most of the time, the best from SACD failed to meet the bet of CD and DSD as recording format (using dCS studio gear) was marginally better than 24/48 PCM but lacking against 96/24 PCM in a recording studio situation, compared to the mike-feed.
Of course, most recording microphones impose such an extreme barrier on dynamic range and bandwidth anyway, CD done well (meaning mastering that maximises the CD's abilities AND playback that maximises the CD's ability) is rarely the real problem, so that debating CD vs. SACD. vs. HD PCM is mostly academic.
That said, while I would release recordings without hesitation on CD, I would never try recording original material in 16/44. I would, though, also no longer use an 8-Track Otari halve inch system...
In the end, music, sounds, audio and the related issues have been and remained an obsession with me, since around four or so decades ago. And I do remain amused and interested.
Ciao T
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Hi,
I tried to design a "infinite load" system once, using positive feedback. I only got into the low point something gigaohms...
Far from infinity.
Ciao T
I tried to design a "infinite load" system once, using positive feedback. I only got into the low point something gigaohms...
Far from infinity.
Ciao T
@Steve: When Jan gets the answers from Hawksford, he'll tell us if we're correct. I won't, and I expect that Pano won't, reveal what our answers were, but if we were totally off base, Jan will be happy to say that in public and that will be one less thing for me to worry about when designing my next speakers.
Tell that to Mr. Herron. Without bootstrapping the C it's meaningless anyway. I built a special purpose preamp that was 5G and .1pF or so.
Hi,
Once I see the results (raw data - which incidentally is rarely supplied by the usual "null result preferred" experimenters) I can tell you just how much money.
My issue with these "challenges" is that they, combined with the classic ABX (Mafia) method do provide a mighty effort in producing null results in the face of opposing facts.
MAYBE (but my sometimes quite painful experience leads me to consider otherwise) the actual deception is innocent and well meaning and merely the result of some people being exceedingly zealous.
Maybe those promoting these agendas (I would be more explicit, yet I have been censured in this forum before for being frank in public) are just "well meaning zealots" that can be shown the errors of their ways and will see the errors of their ways, however I shall not hold my breath, for fear of turning blue or worse....
Ciao T
Once I see the results (raw data - which incidentally is rarely supplied by the usual "null result preferred" experimenters) I can tell you just how much money.
My issue with these "challenges" is that they, combined with the classic ABX (Mafia) method do provide a mighty effort in producing null results in the face of opposing facts.
MAYBE (but my sometimes quite painful experience leads me to consider otherwise) the actual deception is innocent and well meaning and merely the result of some people being exceedingly zealous.
Maybe those promoting these agendas (I would be more explicit, yet I have been censured in this forum before for being frank in public) are just "well meaning zealots" that can be shown the errors of their ways and will see the errors of their ways, however I shall not hold my breath, for fear of turning blue or worse....
Ciao T
Hi,
So, you are saying that you got X of Y sorted in a given way.
What is the statistical significance, given the numbers involved?
I would put money on the fact, that based on the statistics involved the results can be made to be "no better then guesswork", with minimal effort.
Ciao T
So, you are saying that you got X of Y sorted in a given way.
What is the statistical significance, given the numbers involved?
I would put money on the fact, that based on the statistics involved the results can be made to be "no better then guesswork", with minimal effort.
Ciao T
True. With sorting, you can't possible get them all wrong by definition.
I agree with Pano, seeing that we independently sorted them the same way gives me confidence that our sonic impressions were valid, but if the answer key shows that our sorting was random, well, them's the breaks.
I've got 4 replies now, and yours and Pano's are the only ones that are identical, the others are different in a few choices. One respondent couldn't hear a difference but his 10-year old could and he submitted those answers. You've got to get them while they're young I guess
Anyway, believe it or not, I don't know the solution yet. I asked Malcolm to reveal it, but haven't heard from him for a few days.
I will give the complete picture as soon as I have it.
jan didden
Now, we have to impugn Keith Herron, as well?
Well, let us talk about cartridge loading. Almost all hi end demos use an MC cartridge. Now, what about loading? Talking to Charles Hansen about this a few weeks ago, he maintained that 47K or HIGH IMPEDANCE loading is the optimum loading, and that any lower 'optimum' loading just 'fixed' problems in the MC cartridge design and set-up. I don't necessarily completely agree, but we will find out soon, if this is a practical approach.
I am now building a variable load composed of oversized, twin wire wound, 10 turn industrial grade pots, motor driven with a digital readout as a reference.
The user of the Orion phono preamp will be able to sit in an optimum listening position and remotely control the loading over most of the 'important' range on a continuous basis, and IF there is an optimum loading value for a specific MC cartridge, then we will find it. Earlier work done by Dave Wilson and Brian Cheney, independently, showed SPECIFIC resistive values to be optimum for a particular cartridge. I have heard this 'sweet spot' resistance with my earlier Vendetta preamps and earlier MC cartridges.
Personally, I would normally think 47K is high enough to be considered virtually 'infinite' but I could be wrong. I suspect that Keith Herron could go up to as much as 10Meg with his input stage relatively easily. Given that his 'house sound' is very 'soft' perhaps he heard a difference between 47K (that I currently use) and a much higher load impedance. It would be the 'right' direction to get optimum system performance, for him.
Well, let us talk about cartridge loading. Almost all hi end demos use an MC cartridge. Now, what about loading? Talking to Charles Hansen about this a few weeks ago, he maintained that 47K or HIGH IMPEDANCE loading is the optimum loading, and that any lower 'optimum' loading just 'fixed' problems in the MC cartridge design and set-up. I don't necessarily completely agree, but we will find out soon, if this is a practical approach.
I am now building a variable load composed of oversized, twin wire wound, 10 turn industrial grade pots, motor driven with a digital readout as a reference.
The user of the Orion phono preamp will be able to sit in an optimum listening position and remotely control the loading over most of the 'important' range on a continuous basis, and IF there is an optimum loading value for a specific MC cartridge, then we will find it. Earlier work done by Dave Wilson and Brian Cheney, independently, showed SPECIFIC resistive values to be optimum for a particular cartridge. I have heard this 'sweet spot' resistance with my earlier Vendetta preamps and earlier MC cartridges.
Personally, I would normally think 47K is high enough to be considered virtually 'infinite' but I could be wrong. I suspect that Keith Herron could go up to as much as 10Meg with his input stage relatively easily. Given that his 'house sound' is very 'soft' perhaps he heard a difference between 47K (that I currently use) and a much higher load impedance. It would be the 'right' direction to get optimum system performance, for him.
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