PMA, I don't know why you have chosen this thread to challenge the experience of so many successful audio designers. Dale is NOT an exotic resistor brand, and neither was 'Resista' when it was commonly available, but they have been found to sound good in open listening tests, and they actually measure better than most resistors that are available. If you want to use another resistor for any reason, for example, cost, availability, etc, go for it, but why challenge us?
I am now skeptical of the really exotic resistors like Vishay, but they are made for another purpose than audio, and apparently they do have flaws that can be measured at audio frequencies. Holco, another brand that I once liked, changed its formula, AND I don't like it anymore. Prejudice? I think not! The Holco resistors look the same, either old or new.
In fact, the Dale resistors are the WORST LOOKING resistors that I have ever used, why would I use them then?
PMA, if double blind testing has shown you that a TLO72 is all that you need, so be it, but that is the pitfall of double-blind testing. It takes the meaningful listening sensitivity away, along with the objectivity.
I am now skeptical of the really exotic resistors like Vishay, but they are made for another purpose than audio, and apparently they do have flaws that can be measured at audio frequencies. Holco, another brand that I once liked, changed its formula, AND I don't like it anymore. Prejudice? I think not! The Holco resistors look the same, either old or new.
In fact, the Dale resistors are the WORST LOOKING resistors that I have ever used, why would I use them then?
PMA, if double blind testing has shown you that a TLO72 is all that you need, so be it, but that is the pitfall of double-blind testing. It takes the meaningful listening sensitivity away, along with the objectivity.
I just use what I got at the surplus stores!
oh, wait, I live in Portland and the surplus stores were full of ex-Tek and AP and ... stock. Lots of Dale resistors, and used to be Mepco (who did they turn into) and other solid parts.
Too bad all the real surplus stores are gone now.
Cheers
Alan
oh, wait, I live in Portland and the surplus stores were full of ex-Tek and AP and ... stock. Lots of Dale resistors, and used to be Mepco (who did they turn into) and other solid parts.
Too bad all the real surplus stores are gone now.
Cheers
Alan
I have 3 of the same build preamplifier. I loan someone two of them and ask them to compare. They are reasonably well sealed with a hidden tamper indicator. I just ask if there are any comments. Sometimes the units are as far as I know identical. Other times there will be what to me should be an obvious difference such as one uses a carbon composition resistor.
A basic set of tests would be:
Two of the same A & B (Usually Dale 1/2W)
Two of the same B & A
CC VS Dale 1/2W (If they flunk that then Diode vs Dale.)
Bulk Metal VS Dale
Dale VS Bulk Metal
Dale VS Yaego
Testing cycle takes about a year and the subjects do get bored so they don't all do all of the tests.
I want comments not preferences. As some clearly prefer the lower measured accuracy.
Now I have revealed to some of my potential subjects what is being tested! Part of the blind is they might just be presented as here are two different circuits, is there a difference and what is it?
Why do you think it is a distortion difference? I though that was reasonably ruled out by previous experiments.
The issue is if there actually are people that perceive a difference, what is it?
So far it seems there are some folks who perceive a difference. Dispersion (as used in the optical definition) may be a cause. I think there may be something very fundamental that is involved.
That would be a stretch electrons are not photons and the concept of frequency of an audio signal is so far from e = hv that I don't see it. So to speak of course.
That would be a stretch electrons are not photons and the concept of frequency of an audio signal is so far from e = hv that I don't see it. So to speak of course.
No matter how things get expressed there are always different understandings. Acoustic dispersion in non-monatomic gases I am pretty sure has nothing to do with Planck's constant. But it occurs.
Of course it could be the different kind of resistors warp perceptual reality fields around them. But that is not a theory I would consider looking into.
The problem is that there may be an actual perceptual difference and trying to isolate what can be measure to correlate with perception is really an open field. So the chance of determining if or what it might be is small.
20 years ago, I did some ultra precision diamond grinding on ceramics.
You can really achieve a mirror surface finishing without any polishing by these processes.
On one particular sample, at a certain angle to light, I saw a very shallow scratch with my naked eye.
I then tried to measure the scratch with a surface roughness interferometer with sub-nanometer resolution.
To no vail. The interferometer could not pick up the scratch.
The lesson I learned was that human senses could under some circumstances detect things that scientific instrument cannot.
I have a slightly above average hearing (took the distortion hearing test once posted by Joachim Gerhard).
I am the first to admit that I cannot always distinguish minute differences in sonic signature.
But I happen to know people who can.
So just that I subjectively cannot tell does not mean that such differences do not exist or cannot be detected.
Audio is a subjective thing. There is no universal truth.
Else we would all be using opamps with 120dB NFB ?
Cheers,
Patrick
You can really achieve a mirror surface finishing without any polishing by these processes.
On one particular sample, at a certain angle to light, I saw a very shallow scratch with my naked eye.
I then tried to measure the scratch with a surface roughness interferometer with sub-nanometer resolution.
To no vail. The interferometer could not pick up the scratch.
The lesson I learned was that human senses could under some circumstances detect things that scientific instrument cannot.
I have a slightly above average hearing (took the distortion hearing test once posted by Joachim Gerhard).
I am the first to admit that I cannot always distinguish minute differences in sonic signature.
But I happen to know people who can.
So just that I subjectively cannot tell does not mean that such differences do not exist or cannot be detected.
Audio is a subjective thing. There is no universal truth.
Else we would all be using opamps with 120dB NFB ?
Cheers,
Patrick
Every material has a 'sound' and is a 'BQP' or 'non purifier' in it's own right.
Slightly related, the other night I ran tests with two cables.
The first test was M6.5mm - M6.5mm guitar cable connecting bass guitar to bass combo amp.
The second test was ST3.5mm - ST3.5mm connecting mobile phone to Samsung receiver with 3.5mm front panel input.
In both cases the connecting cables were quite clearly directional and this observation confirmed by two other listeners.
In the case of resistors, direction and materials are at least two of the variables.
Dan.
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You probably didn't exhaust the known instrumentation. I have a friend who is an optics expert and has worked on many DARPA grant projects. He routinely talks about measurements orders of magnitude below nanometers.
None of this explains the SET crowd with their amplifiers that have easily measurable amounts of any signal aberration you want, unless there are purely subjective preferences. I've been there listening to music where the harmonic content is very evident (gamelan) the crowd swooned over obviously audible LARGE amounts of harmonic distortion. There is no arguing after some point, this was truer to the music and the relatively distortionless SS amplification was sterile and boring.
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Hi, Occam's Razor here.
Wouldn't that just be easily explained by one side of a cables connector giving a better connection than the other end's connector?
It also has nothing to do with electrical signals in a wire. In fact I could opine that the air quality in your listening space makes more difference than the resistors, prove me wrong.
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