Maybe it's just me not understanding that science stuff, but it seems that before anyone starts proposing mechanisms for a phenomenon, the existence of the phenomenon needs to be demonstrated. Apparently, that's not scientific and we should start trying to examine hand-waved claims. So maybe you're in the same boat as I am, just not really cut out to do science.
AFAIK, professional astronomers aren't spending time hypothesizing about the atmospheric compositions of the alien planets which are the source of the creatures doing the abductions and anal probes. Now, get some evidence that those abductions and probes happen and astronomers will be tripping all over themselves to figure out those answers.
I'm close in both age and hearing ability. The soft top is a part of audio that interests me, and there was just a post about it over in the speaker section.
I prefer the "soft top". Even 30 years ago when my hearing was better, tweeters usually bothered me. I found most of them to sound fake or artificial. The added a texture that I simply did not hear in natural sounds. Some of what they do is fun, and enjoyable for awhile, but still sounds fake to me.
I used to own some IcePower amp modules that I liked very much. A few of my friends didn't like them, claiming they had a "soft top end." Well yeah, that's what I liked about them. And the good bass. They measured flat into the load I used.
Is this just a matter of taste? Or is there some underlying physiological reason for the preference?
Sure.
Where I live all is essentially silent (except for me !) come 7:30 pm, no traffic, no sirens, no neighbors, no aircons..... if you hold your breath you can hear your own heartbeat.
In these conditions really fine differences can be audible.
Dan.
Sy,
This is exactly what I was thinking, how the H**l could a .25 second initial starting point cause a problem that is detectable is beyond me. That is to say that any loudspeaker is completely stable over that same initial impulse while the voicecoil is heating and if we can call it that, stabilizing which never truly happens as the music is dynamic and the heating of the voicecoil is shifting all the time. This just seems to be a new red herring or as you say a new straw-man to further attack digital reproduction. I take the blame for dislike of any digital audio back to the original recording and not the media. As RNM has just learning all the problems he was chasing with dynamic range and other such problems was just that he didn't have speakers capable of reproducing the music without compromise even if he believed those ESL speakers were exemplary. I think the majority of problems are simply poor recordings in the first place and most of the time poor quality speaker systems and not the intermediate electronics causing these problems.
This is exactly what I was thinking, how the H**l could a .25 second initial starting point cause a problem that is detectable is beyond me. That is to say that any loudspeaker is completely stable over that same initial impulse while the voicecoil is heating and if we can call it that, stabilizing which never truly happens as the music is dynamic and the heating of the voicecoil is shifting all the time. This just seems to be a new red herring or as you say a new straw-man to further attack digital reproduction. I take the blame for dislike of any digital audio back to the original recording and not the media. As RNM has just learning all the problems he was chasing with dynamic range and other such problems was just that he didn't have speakers capable of reproducing the music without compromise even if he believed those ESL speakers were exemplary. I think the majority of problems are simply poor recordings in the first place and most of the time poor quality speaker systems and not the intermediate electronics causing these problems.
Me too. I think that was just free association, not any sort of serious point.
Power line communication is also a big problem, the UK EMC club had a campaign to get it banned. it can be fun living next door to someone who uses it it small UK modern terraces. When they started using it I could see the data transmission noise on a wireless video sender.
But that's one of the best things about camping in the middle of BFN! (and the whole camping/hiking/stars/adventure/scenery part, but I digress)
Pano,
Sorry to hear you've moved from paradise and lost your man-cave, I would have like to hear the lava tube myself.
Now to your comment about the top end and your preference for a soft top end I can completely understand and agree that most speakers I have ever heard have horrid problems in the last upper 1/2 octave at a minimum. Any of us who actually deal with the problems of speakers understand the limitations of the majority of dome tweeters and even compression drivers when we are talking above 10khz, there are many known problems with both types of devices.. There are very few devices that can truly handle this area of the audio band and not have some kind of issue, whether that is dome breakups or mass loading problems with compression drivers and poorly designed phase plugs. It is just easier on the ears when we slightly roll off the top end most of the time whether we are capable of hearing that high or not. I can't personally listen to some of what are supposed to be high end dome tweeters, they just fatigue the ears after enough time to not enjoy them and making listening a chore rather than a pleasure.
I doubt highly anyone is complaining that Simon's stadium systems are rolling off by 16Khz and the top end is missing, most people wouldn't know the difference. Even with an orchestra and some bright horns or cymbals how close do you need to be to hear those very high frequency harmonics, there is a rolling off of the high frequencies even in those live events given any distance to the performers.
Sorry to hear you've moved from paradise and lost your man-cave, I would have like to hear the lava tube myself.
Now to your comment about the top end and your preference for a soft top end I can completely understand and agree that most speakers I have ever heard have horrid problems in the last upper 1/2 octave at a minimum. Any of us who actually deal with the problems of speakers understand the limitations of the majority of dome tweeters and even compression drivers when we are talking above 10khz, there are many known problems with both types of devices.. There are very few devices that can truly handle this area of the audio band and not have some kind of issue, whether that is dome breakups or mass loading problems with compression drivers and poorly designed phase plugs. It is just easier on the ears when we slightly roll off the top end most of the time whether we are capable of hearing that high or not. I can't personally listen to some of what are supposed to be high end dome tweeters, they just fatigue the ears after enough time to not enjoy them and making listening a chore rather than a pleasure.
I doubt highly anyone is complaining that Simon's stadium systems are rolling off by 16Khz and the top end is missing, most people wouldn't know the difference. Even with an orchestra and some bright horns or cymbals how close do you need to be to hear those very high frequency harmonics, there is a rolling off of the high frequencies even in those live events given any distance to the performers.
It's a major topic where I agree with Earl Geddes. The top octave just isn't that important to most of us. Roll off below that and strings start to loose their warmth, among other things. But above 10K? Most tweeters sound fake to me, up there. Less these days, as I don't hear much above 13K anymore.
I have heard some tweeters that sounded natural to me. Some electrostatic tweeters, a couple of ribbons, the RAAL things. But those were also brought down a bit in amplitude, which helped them blend. I agree with you that most drivers just don't do a great job up top. For me, that's anything north of 8 kHz.
Other people seem to love all that top end sparkle and air. I don't like it.
Tune to taste? Why not, every element in front of the speaker was. Even microphone position was selected to give a specific sound. I may not agree with your selection but I can turn up the treble or adjust the tweeter to suit my desires. There really isn't an absolute correct response. Toole arrived at a soft rolloff in his 'taste testing". However, if the recording engineer used a rolled off speaker he might have adjusted for more HF content.
The front end electronics are more responsible for the earsplitting high frequencies than you think.It's a major topic where I agree with Earl Geddes. The top octave just isn't that important to most of us. Roll off below that and strings start to loose their warmth, among other things. But above 10K? Most tweeters sound fake to me, up there. Less these days, as I don't hear much above 13K anymore.
I have heard some tweeters that sounded natural to me. Some electrostatic tweeters, a couple of ribbons, the RAAL things. But those were also brought down a bit in amplitude, which helped them blend. I agree with you that most drivers just don't do a great job up top. For me, that's anything north of 8 kHz.
Other people seem to love all that top end sparkle and air. I don't like it.
You guys aren't getting my point, the speed of sound in air changes ~89ppm for each .1 degree F so even in a normal room free field listening will have time dependent variation far worse than the pico-seconds in a CD player.
This is a test of a new Scan Speak Revelator 30mm dome tweeter. How can this be called flat or even well controlled in the decay parameter. This has nothing to do with the preceding electronics, it is what you see in even some of the most expensive dome tweeters. So common and the falling response is approximately 7db over the top octave or so.
Oh I got that. Was just funning. I mean if the recording gear were as good as Max's playback you would be able to hear the musician's heartbeats
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