Hang on!
Hold the presses...
...I think, but I am not certain, that you in essence said that a "3dB rolloff above 10kHz" is audible??
So, how about a 2dB, 1.5dB, 1.0dB, 0.5dB, 0.025dB, 0.1dB...??
Where's the threshold where it becomes undetectable?
And in all situations, or only in specific situations?
What if the person listening has hearing that rolls off about 10kHz?
Or, 12kHz, or 15kHz...etc??
How would people with these different hearing reductions perceive this, and how would they be likely to report it?
Stuff like that... just trying to QUANTIFY in the interest of science. Yes?
Hold the presses...
...I think, but I am not certain, that you in essence said that a "3dB rolloff above 10kHz" is audible??
So, how about a 2dB, 1.5dB, 1.0dB, 0.5dB, 0.025dB, 0.1dB...??
Where's the threshold where it becomes undetectable?
And in all situations, or only in specific situations?
What if the person listening has hearing that rolls off about 10kHz?
Or, 12kHz, or 15kHz...etc??
How would people with these different hearing reductions perceive this, and how would they be likely to report it?
Stuff like that... just trying to QUANTIFY in the interest of science. Yes?
Look if the answer comes down to "I don't know" or "it is not known", etc... then fine.
I'm ok with that.
Or, "based upon x, y, or z (papers, or whatever) I think that...)
Ok with that too.
But I am not ok with the "everything sounds the same" types of positions.
This has to be qualified and quantified for it to stand.
Questioning these things is a good basis for learning, investigation and understanding.
_-_-
I'm ok with that.
Or, "based upon x, y, or z (papers, or whatever) I think that...)
Ok with that too.
But I am not ok with the "everything sounds the same" types of positions.
This has to be qualified and quantified for it to stand.
Questioning these things is a good basis for learning, investigation and understanding.
_-_-
Why does this always get phrased as "all [DACs/preamps/amps/cables/whatever] sound the same"?
Never mind. Rhetorical question.
*sigh*
se
Please find where I said that. IMHO DAC's don't have a sound a complete system might. But please realize I could care less about this stuff in general, there are no Maxwell's demons and no directional wires or undiscovered quantum mechanical effects that ONLY affect the sound of your music. That is essentially what I care about, there is some ordinary totally understandable reason for any of these things.
I don't know where this everything sounds the same came from, I just gave an example subbing a 500pF/ft speaker cable might make a simple frequency response change that one might like, so what. You can state the result in several ways, someone's $1000 a meter cable is "magic" or you could parallel up some stock Belden wire at 1/100th the cost and achieve the same result.
It's a general level of dishonesty and fraud that permeates the hi-end industry that bothers me.
Oh, please!
I asked IF anyone thought that *anything*, pick ur point of reference, sounded different or not in their personal belief/experience. Before which I inquired if anyone had had a confounding experience where something sounded different when it was unexpected and flew against their understanding/beliefs/or technical expertise. The earlier question drew no responses of use.
So, I moved to the question of WHAT if anything sounds different. Starting with simple things, like SPDIF cables, then jitter, then amplifiers.
The goal is to see IF something is reported consistently as having a discernible sound that is different from another something (examples as given in previous threads) THEN what is the quantifiable measurement of the difference(s)??
Next step, where are the apparent thresholds of difference?
But what we get instead is derision of Jack Bybee, rather than thinking about IF his "thingie" is audible (or any OTHER "thingie") how SUBTLE or GROSS is that difference??
This is an essential and basic, underlying issue in audio.
It's as good a point in time as any to drill down into this issue.
Start with obviously gross differences, and sequentially refine, that's one direction to work it.
Fwiw, it's rather inane to say that "DACs have no sound" because they are not a system. We're clearly talking about substituting one DAC or ABX'ing one for another IN a "system".
_-_-
But it permeates the industry mostly because consumers want it, not so much because the market is artificially created by bad people who happened to pick on audio for no particular reason. In a way it's like online poker, where people want to gamble, and they believe a system for winning exists and that they happen to know what it is. They go around looking for opportunities to play because they have convinced themselves they will win. Similarly, there are people who believe there are mystical pseudo-scientific secrets to great sound, and that they will know it when they find it. They can have it for themselves which makes them special, and then they can brag to their friends about their super stereo. So, the hucksters fill the demand more that create it, I think. And compared to things like fake cancer cures, or excessive gambling, there isn't all that much harm to it.
Regarding DACs, I have a few DAC boxes and sound cards. They all sound different. With a little training and practice you can hear it. No special ears required. I haven't met anyone who can't hear some difference, given the opportunity to try it and brief coaching on what to listen for. But most of them don't care much about it, and forget what they learned about it very quickly. They are happy with their cell phones and earbuds, in part because they don't listen to music as a stand-alone activity. They use music while they multitask. So they rarely give listening their full attention.
Different than what? There are plenty of devices out there that alter the signal to the point that is within known audible thresholds. So naturally compared to a device which doesn't there will be audible differences between the two. So the question doesn't make much sense.
The bottom line is that it is possible to design nearly any component (save for such things as loudspeakers) whose distortions are well below known audible thresholds. If someone believes otherwise, the onus is upon them to demonstrate such not being the case.
se
Bear, rather than being so obtuse, how about you actually READ the already established tests/research that have been done. Also, do a search of JCX's posts wrt psychoacoustics, as I think he's fairly well read on the topic and gives a decent list of books on the subject.
At least start here: Audio Musings by Sean Olive and have a go at BWaslo's Sousaphone band tests (which have been argued here ad nauseam).
Be prepared to temper your enthusiasm. In the short term, can you stop building up strawmen and burning them down?
Mark -- high end audio equipment are luxury goods with a thin veneer of technicality. This level of absurdity isn't exactly unique. (Albeit you do well to mention the stupidity of most consumer-level "wellness" products)
At least start here: Audio Musings by Sean Olive and have a go at BWaslo's Sousaphone band tests (which have been argued here ad nauseam).
Be prepared to temper your enthusiasm. In the short term, can you stop building up strawmen and burning them down?
Mark -- high end audio equipment are luxury goods with a thin veneer of technicality. This level of absurdity isn't exactly unique. (Albeit you do well to mention the stupidity of most consumer-level "wellness" products)
Fine, let's be specific.
ANY two pieces of wonderfully designed and made equipment that are indistinguishable from each other.
Or alternately, suggest or cite the "known" thresholds you mentioned.
But then we quickly get into the realm of where this threshold lies, and let's see how much above the "known" threshold(s) one CAN hear a so-called diffference?
Give me some definition, quantification, and solid basis for making decisions
about this gear.
Derf, I know about the things you keep posting, thanks...
Gee, I don't. But Brad's list of issues was incomplete. When I hear a difference I do try to measure what causes it. Now the issue oft times is trying to get those measurements without any special test equipment. If all you can measure to a high degree of precision is level, frequency response and distortion, then you have the hammer/nail issue.
RNM,
Your results look so good I previously would have thought that such data was dry lab'd.
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If research is available without a paywall, I would be happy to read it.
For me personally, it's whatever gives me the most pleasure whatever the reason may be.
Are you looking for someone to make your decisions for you or something?
se
Yes, precisely. Ironically, the full attention can sometimes interfere with the assessment, in a sort-of-Heisenberg fashion. But then one disentangles this (quasi-quantum pun intended) later, if you decide to be regurgitative about it.
In the meantime I listen to music. I can't stand having it as background unless I am doing stupid-silly-boring tasks. This, along with the envy led to my unpopularity in shared-space labs at Harman. While one person was sorting lockwashers and assuring that his drawers were tidy (to an OCD degree) I would be bringing up a prototype, and Coltrane or Steely Dan was intensely distracting.
I was accused of not liking music.
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