Virtually every time I listen to a good vinyl record, I remember WHY I got into audio reproduction. Digital still leaves me cold, even though I know it is virtually everywhere. It is like fast food, and at best, like cheap restaurant food. When I hear a quality vinyl record it is like dining at Chez Panisse. Perhaps it is because I was fully grown BEFORE digital took over, and in the audio business big time. I learned long ago to basically ignore ticks and pops, and I rarely hear any vinyl noise. However, I did get a record recently, probably 50 years old, that had a lot of vinyl background noise. I suspect that it was played 'wet' at some time of its previous ownership which makes it noisy when played 'dry' on a later occasion.
The quality of my Vinyl playback is not that bad. Over 100Hz i get a dynamic range of 75dB, needle in grove, 5cm/sec. Distortion is 0.5%, second is highest. Red is the noise of one of my Fet phonostages. This is not even my best. I have one that does not have the 50Hz hum component and is even 4 - 6dB better in noise performance. Anyway, noise in phonostages seems to be over-rated too considering what happens when the needle hits the groove. Anyway, i am disturbed when i hear noise when the record is not playing so i make a major efford to reduce noise. Ones the music plays, and the music is good i forget about the technical flaws. The ear-brain is superb in separating information from backround noise i think. A lot of masking is going on too but i am no expert in Psychoacoustics. Yes John, high Vinyl distortion disturbs me less then CD reproduction from a player with a weak output stage and mediocre PSU plus some jitter
and a not particular carefull designed anti alias filter.
and a not particular carefull designed anti alias filter.
Joachim, it might be useful for you to try Chez Panisse when you once again come to Berkeley. I have had amazing experiences there with simple food. However, I normally eat at Caezars (sp) next door and take my chances. Some of the dishes can be just as good as Chez Panisse, but it is easy to get served there, (no reservations) and a great place to take an associate for lunch. Please ask Allen about this subject. Trust no others.
Mike, electronics is not an issue. Distortion is inherent to the phono/vinyl technology and is unavoidable.
Anyway, I like to listen to my set of LP's, especially those from the beginning of sixties, jazz recordings on Verve, RCA and Decca labels (regardless the unavoidable distortion
)
Thanks John, for the sugestion. I will ask Allen what he thinks about those places. Usually i am very happy with food in Berkeley anyway and Allen is a great cook. From the music listening view i enjoy my CD playback as much as my turntable setup but it was not until 1993 when i heard the Forsell Air Reference, that i could stand CD for more then an hour.
Before that i had some local fame to modify Phillips based CD players. What i found inside was typically poor analog engineering. Very basic PCB material, a lot of unbespoke elcaps in the signal pass, slow Opamps, weak PSU, muting transistors, poor decoupling etc.
I still have the Forseel after all this years and when i fire it up from time to time, the sound is even a bit romatic compared to the taste i aquired over the years. Yes, i think our taste changes over time. How else could you explain that i had as much fun to listen to music ( in retrospect i think i had even more fun ) 30 years ago, at a time where my system was not half as good as today. When i listen to a record from that time i realise that there are details audible i had never known that they even existed, still my emotional reaction is not "more satisfying". Sound quality in general terms is hard to measure, as i learn following this thread but "musicality" as i call the abiity of a system to play what John calls "the essence of the music" is even harder to grasp i think. Subjective listening tests are the only way to access that but they do not prove anything as i learn here too. So what can we do to improve our systems ?
Before that i had some local fame to modify Phillips based CD players. What i found inside was typically poor analog engineering. Very basic PCB material, a lot of unbespoke elcaps in the signal pass, slow Opamps, weak PSU, muting transistors, poor decoupling etc.
I still have the Forseel after all this years and when i fire it up from time to time, the sound is even a bit romatic compared to the taste i aquired over the years. Yes, i think our taste changes over time. How else could you explain that i had as much fun to listen to music ( in retrospect i think i had even more fun ) 30 years ago, at a time where my system was not half as good as today. When i listen to a record from that time i realise that there are details audible i had never known that they even existed, still my emotional reaction is not "more satisfying". Sound quality in general terms is hard to measure, as i learn following this thread but "musicality" as i call the abiity of a system to play what John calls "the essence of the music" is even harder to grasp i think. Subjective listening tests are the only way to access that but they do not prove anything as i learn here too. So what can we do to improve our systems ?
Joachim,
Does this not point to the fact that our music enjoyment comes more from within ourselves, our emotional makeup and 'position' in a specific timeframe, than from our equipment?
Might that not be one reason that for decades now we seem to go araound and around but not really making substantial progress?
Just wondering,
jan didden
There is no doubt that music appreciation is an inner process, inside human beings. This applies both to live and reconstructed music. AFAIK, science doesn't have answers as to why and how we appreciate music.
As much as music appreciation is an inner process, most of us know from our own experience that the music reproduction gear does have an impact on the amount of joy we get from listening to reconstructed music. Therefore, what gear we have does have a meaning.
However, measurements alone, especially those measurements published by audio gear manufacturers, does not give complete indication for our appreciation of the music reconstructed by that gear.
It looks to me that what we are left with, on top of measurements, is listening tests.
As for the difference between vinyl records and CD's, a friend of mine puts it this way: CD's sound better, but vinyl records "make music".
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