They have ~10% the storage capacity, but X 10 to X100 the power rating.
Steve Eddy,
It appears we are developing a new Rube Goldberg device. If we used a lithium ion battery like you suggested now we need to have the somewhat complex charging circuit for that type of battery. If we also incorporate the idea of Christophe and disconnected the charging circuit while listening to a music passage then we have a secondary control having to sense a music input and turn the charging system on and off. How that would affect the charging duty cycle and charging rate would now be another factor to consider. If you are only talking about let's say a headphone amp, portable let's say, then just run the device until you reach some minimum charge state and recharge. It just seems like we are trading one situation for another. It seems like rnmarsh's solution to address the typical power supply would be more practical. If we throw in the power amplifier of a normal loudspeaker system I don't see the practicality of a battery driven system. Why have to deal with two totally different types of power supply? Richard is giving us the clues but is making us do the work to realize what he is proposing.
It appears we are developing a new Rube Goldberg device. If we used a lithium ion battery like you suggested now we need to have the somewhat complex charging circuit for that type of battery. If we also incorporate the idea of Christophe and disconnected the charging circuit while listening to a music passage then we have a secondary control having to sense a music input and turn the charging system on and off. How that would affect the charging duty cycle and charging rate would now be another factor to consider. If you are only talking about let's say a headphone amp, portable let's say, then just run the device until you reach some minimum charge state and recharge. It just seems like we are trading one situation for another. It seems like rnmarsh's solution to address the typical power supply would be more practical. If we throw in the power amplifier of a normal loudspeaker system I don't see the practicality of a battery driven system. Why have to deal with two totally different types of power supply? Richard is giving us the clues but is making us do the work to realize what he is proposing.
Kindhornman, this is only intellectual amusement. While we can stay all over the audio channel in digital world, and soon even for power amplifiers, we will have only to deal with those problems in the last power stage. No more ground issues at all, using optical connections. And even if we keep electrical connections, re-clock is easy.
Hard times for audiophiles, witch will not have anything to play with, taking apples for oranges, while i imagine they will soon invent new fake evils.
AC PSUs are yet problematic in analog devices unless you overkill and it is expensive.
Hard times for audiophiles, witch will not have anything to play with, taking apples for oranges, while i imagine they will soon invent new fake evils.
Witch solution ? Near verything had been experienced in matter of power supplies. From switched ones to linear. Everything inside is a problem, Diode parasitics, ground leakages, RFI, RMI, electromagnetic issues etc. Addressing most of them can be done, but very expensive with negative effects (like PSUs in separate boxes). Diode commutation noise still exist whatever you try, etc.
AC PSUs are yet problematic in analog devices unless you overkill and it is expensive.
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Christophe,
It reminds me of the first time I saw an advertisement for a totally digital speaker system! I guess our brains could just interpret all the zero's and one's and turn them into music! At least I can keep on working on the speaker side no matter what they do on the electronics side......
It reminds me of the first time I saw an advertisement for a totally digital speaker system! I guess our brains could just interpret all the zero's and one's and turn them into music! At least I can keep on working on the speaker side no matter what they do on the electronics side......
Actually they DO work, and our ears do. Picture a square matrix with 65000 tiny speakers, that are each indicidually activated with a puls (one) or not(zero).
The 65k elements represent a 16 bit digital value.
I heard a speaker like that at an AES convention a few years back. Not 65k elements but a few 100 IIRC. Wasn't hi-end by a long shot, but sounded pretty nice if you realise that there's only ones and zeros going into it.
So, the concept is valid; whether it will become reality has to be seen.
Mass production of large matrices in itself is not difficult, look at our hires displays. The step from turning on an LED to pulsing a piezo element is not a big one.
jan
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No, not you. Maybe your grandson/engineer
But you are correct, one interesting option would be beam-steering, which is nowadays a routine feature of phase-shift array radar antennas for instance.
We know how to do these things - what's missing is someone who pours enough money into it. And that won't happen until someone sees a way to make money from it, lots of money. Ideas?
jan
that depends, in the case you spoke of, you mentioned 8W and backed up by an AC source, so the battery is just acting as a capacitor with a rather long charge time and unstable operation. 8W is hardly demanding and the cap can charge in far less time than the battery, as well as not having the noise associated with high current battery discharge (the larger the load with batteries, the higher the chemical noise)
also you may have noticed the last unit I linked was not low voltage and they get up to voltages now that are far beyond or at least equal to all but tube audio (several in the quick browse just before at mouser were over 50V), certainly enough for the hiraga or some other Class A/AB/D amps.
yes there are more low voltage supercaps, but that is not a defining quality these days and anyway polymer battery cells are only low voltage cells in series too, are they not?
Esperado, it depends, some are simply very large polymer capacitors, no chemical reaction in the same vein as batteries. similar in many ways though yes
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Digital is a side-step to the issue of amp/PS PSR in analog circuits.
The primary problem for audio sound has been the source material: Great RIAA preamps but lousy source -LP's. Thus came the CD. No turning back. The intermediary has been DAC's. Soon no need for them either as direct to power amp is moving right along. No turning back.
But this forum is about analog issues. I have replaced all my analog with digital except the power amps and an FM tuner. The HiDef. downloads are superiour as sources. Best sound to date in my house.
PSRR is over rated for High-End designs. it can be removed as a real issue with best PS practices... brute force or ottherwise (tracking regs). IC mfr do not have the luxury to assume such supplies will be used in commercial or industrial apps. Most of the time, bussed power is the norm... leading to possible very noisy power on the buss. So they must have best PSRR they can make. No so for us. Current-Mode amps for line stage is OK with good supplies.
Power amplifiers present a unique challenge when using Current-Mode amp circuit with low PSR. This forum isnt only about preamps... JC designs power amps, also. Power amps prsent some very challenging issues that line stages have done much better at solving/minimizing.
Thx-RNMarsh
The primary problem for audio sound has been the source material: Great RIAA preamps but lousy source -LP's. Thus came the CD. No turning back. The intermediary has been DAC's. Soon no need for them either as direct to power amp is moving right along. No turning back.
But this forum is about analog issues. I have replaced all my analog with digital except the power amps and an FM tuner. The HiDef. downloads are superiour as sources. Best sound to date in my house.
PSRR is over rated for High-End designs. it can be removed as a real issue with best PS practices... brute force or ottherwise (tracking regs). IC mfr do not have the luxury to assume such supplies will be used in commercial or industrial apps. Most of the time, bussed power is the norm... leading to possible very noisy power on the buss. So they must have best PSRR they can make. No so for us. Current-Mode amps for line stage is OK with good supplies.
Power amplifiers present a unique challenge when using Current-Mode amp circuit with low PSR. This forum isnt only about preamps... JC designs power amps, also. Power amps prsent some very challenging issues that line stages have done much better at solving/minimizing.
Thx-RNMarsh
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I hope that people come to realize the advantages and disadvantages of both batteries and super caps, as well as the problems with AC, that often give you to wishing that you WERE running on batteries.
The Blowtorch and its related components will most probably always ride on SUPER BUFFERED AC, because of its VA needs.
I don't know much yet about the LINEARITY of super caps, but that should be looked into.
The Blowtorch and its related components will most probably always ride on SUPER BUFFERED AC, because of its VA needs.
I don't know much yet about the LINEARITY of super caps, but that should be looked into.
Jan,
My daughter wants to be an engineer, perhaps she could do it! The Piezo actuators are nothing new so we are really talking miniaturization here and digital control. The only real problem with most piezo drivers in the past was just the build quality and the diaphragm materials that were used. And yes I was thinking of a phase array when I said what I did about steering the wavefront, both developed technologies but just not for loudspeakers. I think I have said to much, now I will have to send out the Men In Black to erase all the memories here on the thread!
My daughter wants to be an engineer, perhaps she could do it! The Piezo actuators are nothing new so we are really talking miniaturization here and digital control. The only real problem with most piezo drivers in the past was just the build quality and the diaphragm materials that were used. And yes I was thinking of a phase array when I said what I did about steering the wavefront, both developed technologies but just not for loudspeakers. I think I have said to much, now I will have to send out the Men In Black to erase all the memories here on the thread!
I dont think theyve been around long enough to have a typical anything and besides, ESR/ESL for what capacity? they are pretty all over the map, but mostly pretty low mΩ range. you probably wouldnt use them as the actual decoupling and reservoir as well as power source. just as with batteries, to be fair if you are comparing to a filtered AC fed regulator, you should compare to a filtered battery so battery->CLCRC->load
True enough. Though the idea is that the battery would never need to be charged. It's just there to provide the hold up voltage.
se
But the battery doesn't need charging per se. The bulk of the energy is coming from the AC supply, the battery just maintaining hold up voltage so the actual draw from the battery is quite small.
Yes, I guess they're making capacitor arrays now like they do battery arrays. But back when I was looking into the newer super caps, they were just offering single caps, which were like 2 to 3 volts.
se
John,
I know you are right on that one. It was a joke. I knew a microwave engineer in the past and he did some interesting things with waveguides. The person who introduced me to my wife is a designer for last I knew Raytheon, and his specialty was electro magnetic s. His stuff is up in space.
I know you are right on that one. It was a joke. I knew a microwave engineer in the past and he did some interesting things with waveguides. The person who introduced me to my wife is a designer for last I knew Raytheon, and his specialty was electro magnetic s. His stuff is up in space.
Phase array speakers like this have been made. I will try to find a link later.
like this maxwell 58F/16V for $157USD is 22mΩ
then you get from the same range a 500F/16V at 2.1mΩ for $634USD
the higher voltage ones are where the cash really stacks up and theyre huge, but this wont be forever; just in the last year or so the area has grown massively
then you get from the same range a 500F/16V at 2.1mΩ for $634USD
the higher voltage ones are where the cash really stacks up and theyre huge, but this wont be forever; just in the last year or so the area has grown massively
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