Wow, we really are on different planets. I just bought a a very well maintained Thorens for my place in California. I have no problem listening to LP's especially since I consider the performances of yore to far surpass what we get now.
John and Joshua please note.
Concur! Although I did hear a tuning fork crystal break in overdrive once.
And I was looking at the bottom of a TO-5 2N5416 (if memory serves) as it blew up, and the flash was visible through the blue Kovar-sealing borosilicate glass around the base and emitter leads
Still no sound though.Brad
Again I concur. I'm enjoying LPs more than ever now, although I would not argue for some intrinsic superiority of the medium. I've even acquired some new ones, including 45RPM very-high-quality pressings from old master tapes. Some of my friends keep arguing that LP listeners are captivated by the clicks and pops, that they are antiquarians and devotees of nostalgia. Well (although I think that's rubbish to begin with), if so, they would be sorely disappointed by these astonishingly quiet surfaces.
I was asked to consult on a product similar to the infamous Tice clock. The sales guy was wholly convinced that this thing (I think the brand was Electraclear or some such) worked wonders. I heard nothing (sighted test, and I would have been pleased to have heard anything). Others thought they could hear a change. Obviously I have defective hearing
I did my best to be polite but handed the guy over to another consultant. He looked at some of the data that was supposed to have proven that the gadget was doing something. It consisted of two data records from a CD that was played with and without the gizmo.
Dan S. pointed out that they were different all right, but they were taken from two different parts of the CD
You can't make this stuff up.
HA!
That's the thing. Our subjective perceptions are so malleable that you can literally dream up most anything and there will always be some number of people who will report some change/improvement and insist that anyone who doesn't is either deaf, has a crappy system, or both.
se
I also enjoy LPs more than CDs, not because of their inherent flaws, but despite of those flaws. Alas, out of the hundreds of LPs I own, only few dozens are enjoyable, the rest are either scratched, or distorted, or too noisy.
It is my assumption that the inherent flaws of LPs are more tolerable to the hearing mechanism than the flaws of most CD players.
Also, it seems to me that most recordings made on the past few decades are far inferior to recordings made earlier. I'm not referring to the technical quality of the recordings, but to the microphones placement/mixing/manipulating/mastering processes.
When I as a ~ten-year-old expressed an interest in classical music, having heard a few things on 78s that he had (Tchaikovsky 5th for example), my father did a tradeout for a reissue set of RCA Red Seals, a softcover set called Stereo for the Joy of It. They are still playable but beyond mere cleaning at this point, but did I ever enjoy the hell out of them. They were probably using the same stampers as the first individual releases, good vinyl, and spectacular performances. Many were recorded in three channel by the justly celebrated Lewis Layton and mixed down to stereo.
A little bit of tape hiss, and a significant amount of print-through can be heard sometimes (the opening of the Stravinsky Song of the Nightingale a good example of the latter). But what great music! He got a little carried away in the last bits of the Brahms violin concerto, although I'm not sure how much things are overloading and where (come to think of it I believe the CD is comparable to the LP, after factoring out inner groove distortion, so it's almost surely on the master tapes).
But these recordings were life-changing.
EDIT: there were famous predecessors of Layton whom I can't recall who may have been involved ahead of his work, and the net isn't yielding them up for me. Anyone?
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No doubt CDs are much more convenient. I was referring to the sound quality (in a way of sense of realism). On my setup, it is better on those LPs which are in good condition. However my present CDP comes really close.
I don't mind much a little hiss and print-through, as long as everything else isn't too bothering.
Indeed, music is life changing, at least some creations (when both the partiture and the performance excel).
I find than many of us are on the same track. Phono is a hassle, BUT it can really show off a well designed audio system with a few really well done and preserved, demo discs.
I have a whole box full of vinyl records that I would not play for any rational reason, they sound just that bad, and they probably sounded that bad when they were new.
Yet, WHEN things are right, we can get to the TRUE ESSENCE of the music with a certain selection of vinyl discs, coupled with the best playback equipment.
Think of it like a sports car that is used for a variety of uses. It can be fairly noisy, and you can feel virtually every bump in the road. It won't haul a trailer very well. It might be OK for a commute, but maybe not over a longer distance, like a vacation, and certainly not with more than 2 people. Critics can argue that anyone who owns a sports car is either a snob or a fool, YET take this sports car on a twisty back road, and WOW! That is if your tires are up to shape, etc.
The parallel here is a phono playback system. IF the vinyl is first class, (kind of like a twisty back road), and your tires are first class (like a very high quality phono cartridge), and you are reasonably in tune (audio playback system reasonably adjusted), then you can get WOW as well from your phono playback system.
Not very practical though, and usually we have to rely on other modes of either automobile or music storage.
You might think of digital as like the electric car. Quiet, hi tech, efficient. Yet, compared to a quality gas automobile engine, it might be lacking in 'performance' for the most part. Digital does get better and better, but I still cannot live with it as a hi fi source, exclusively. I hope for better in future.
I have a whole box full of vinyl records that I would not play for any rational reason, they sound just that bad, and they probably sounded that bad when they were new.
Yet, WHEN things are right, we can get to the TRUE ESSENCE of the music with a certain selection of vinyl discs, coupled with the best playback equipment.
Think of it like a sports car that is used for a variety of uses. It can be fairly noisy, and you can feel virtually every bump in the road. It won't haul a trailer very well. It might be OK for a commute, but maybe not over a longer distance, like a vacation, and certainly not with more than 2 people. Critics can argue that anyone who owns a sports car is either a snob or a fool, YET take this sports car on a twisty back road, and WOW! That is if your tires are up to shape, etc.
The parallel here is a phono playback system. IF the vinyl is first class, (kind of like a twisty back road), and your tires are first class (like a very high quality phono cartridge), and you are reasonably in tune (audio playback system reasonably adjusted), then you can get WOW as well from your phono playback system.
Not very practical though, and usually we have to rely on other modes of either automobile or music storage.
You might think of digital as like the electric car. Quiet, hi tech, efficient. Yet, compared to a quality gas automobile engine, it might be lacking in 'performance' for the most part. Digital does get better and better, but I still cannot live with it as a hi fi source, exclusively. I hope for better in future.
Great.. that way you wont have to think too hard.
Or. perhaps I am writting in short hand to you..... This stuff has been gone over a lot in the past. Some get it, like JC, and some dont. Sorry it isnt complete enough for you here. But I am not going over the long version here with you. Lets talk about John's blowtourch. We're on page what now? Thx - RNM
I like and have heard a lot of great LP's on my system. And, I had many classical performances on rare albums from Europe et al. The best i heard to date wasnt with a CD player.... it was via demian martins liitle guy, the PK100 into a BenchMark DAC1 from high resolution downloads in FLAC or WAVE files. It is a quantum leap (dont go taking me literally!) over CD. Instruments sound most real in my house for the first time.
[JC, come over and try the twisty roads of hwy 49 with me in my modified ZR1 or modified CTS-V! I like high-performance in everything.... women, cars, art, video, audio. Why settle for less? ] -RNM
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Well Richard, I am glad to know that you have found something significantly better than normal CD. I have an Oppo Blue Ray player being modified (about 6 mo late) that I hope to get better SACD and DVD. I also have a new computer with 24/192 capability, but I have not learned to use it yet.
I have heard a lot of hi end digital at CES over the years, but nothing knocks my socks off, so far.
Unfortunately, I can't feel comfortable driving on freeways, anymore. I have basically, just one good eye, and IT needs new lenses. I just drive my 944 around town.
I have heard a lot of hi end digital at CES over the years, but nothing knocks my socks off, so far.
Unfortunately, I can't feel comfortable driving on freeways, anymore. I have basically, just one good eye, and IT needs new lenses. I just drive my 944 around town.
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maybe I should pick u up?
BTW - the best all analog I ever heard was at Dave Wilson's home with your electronics and custom (by you) tape deck playing Dave's masters. The CD player I use now uses a computer disk drive instead of the usual consumer cd player drive and best IC's and still seems like a stop-gap solution... though very much more conveient to use and operate and no wearing et al. But DSP and digital is really getting good now and so - being an early adopter type - am looking into its performance now. The OPPO is super great base to start with. Should give you a lot of enjoyment.... I got excellent 3D setup which is great HD res and picture is better than at an iMAX. Long live analog!
Maybe I can come get you sometime when we are both available to visit. drop me an email and give me your phone number. If my own eye sight keeps getting worse, I'll have to start selling cars.... these two are scary quick and not for traffic driving anymore in close quarters. Anyway, since I left living in the Bay area about 15 years ago, we have a lot of catching up to do. CUL(ater). "Dick" Marsh
BTW - the best all analog I ever heard was at Dave Wilson's home with your electronics and custom (by you) tape deck playing Dave's masters. The CD player I use now uses a computer disk drive instead of the usual consumer cd player drive and best IC's and still seems like a stop-gap solution... though very much more conveient to use and operate and no wearing et al. But DSP and digital is really getting good now and so - being an early adopter type - am looking into its performance now. The OPPO is super great base to start with. Should give you a lot of enjoyment.... I got excellent 3D setup which is great HD res and picture is better than at an iMAX. Long live analog!
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Scott
The direction of energy flow you are describing, is not the one I meant to convey (no parameters and operating point changes as well). See my initial post:
(Says the metal can to the die: … You Don't Move Me - Ana Popovic on Don Odells Legends.mov - YouTube )
I will try to explain in a more boring way :
Strong electrical signal –“working” signal of the transistor-induces (assuming piezoelectricity) alternating mechanical stress within the die.
The die is strained accordingly.
This tinny strained mass transmits vibrations to the part of the metal can to which it is attached to (high mechanical impedance, efficient transmission).
Vibrations are transmitted to the rest of the metal can surfaces (some reflections occur as well).
The whole can is now quite a large vibrating surface to efficiently emit acoustic energy in the air.
In turn now (the microphony part), these vibrations of the can are transferred back to the die as mechanical stress. The die is strained and (assuming piezoelectricity again) generates electrical signal - analogous to the vibrations it receives from the can - at the electrodes of the transistor. This delayed and distorted “microphonic” signal, is mixed with (injected into) the “ working “ electrical signal of the transistor electrodes.
You may be correct about the “fickle finger” removing (shunting to ground?) parasitic oscillation.
I am been kept away from my bench. I can not replicate the test now. Besides, I don’t remember which finger I used then.
The anecdotal (porn) story I am referring to, goes something like this:
The amp bare PCB is on the bench ~ 30 - 40cm from my ears. I drive the circuit with sinusoidal signal and intentionally increase the drive, watching on the scope the power rails and the output of the amp feeding a dummy load.
A thin metalic sound comes from the PCB while the amp is overdriven, again and again. I locate the sound source ( two driver transistors in that initial case) .
While overdriving the amp and watching the distorted output, I place my finger over one or the other of the noisy transistors and the distorted amp output signal on the screen becomes a bit less ugly.
I have noticed emitted sounds from transistors on other amplifiers too that I have overdriven.
George
I know about Jack Pfeiffer, one degree of separation in fact. Maybe it was pre-Red Seal.
No not yet, someone else was asking me the same question only yesterday. Its on my mental list of places to visit for sure - I hear the dumplings are excellent.
I have read of thermal expansion coefficient mismatch causing "oil-canning" motion in T0-3 cans
but these thermal expnasion based motions are not technically piezoelectric and not "reciprocal" http://books.google.com/books?id=1x...wCQ#v=onepage&q=reciprocal transducer&f=false
doped Si in chips is also not piezoelectric - it can be piezoresistive, the resulting Vos modulation by package strain is discussed in Av 4000x strain gage amplification
but these thermal expnasion based motions are not technically piezoelectric and not "reciprocal" http://books.google.com/books?id=1x...wCQ#v=onepage&q=reciprocal transducer&f=false
doped Si in chips is also not piezoelectric - it can be piezoresistive, the resulting Vos modulation by package strain is discussed in Av 4000x strain gage amplification
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Concur! Although I did hear a tuning fork crystal break in overdrive once.
And I was looking at the bottom of a TO-5 2N5416 (if memory serves) as it blew up, and the flash was visible through the blue Kovar-sealing borosilicate glass around the base and emitter leads
I heard sound when hats were popping off the base. Before that they were flat, after that they were round.
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