Absolutely not. Any kid learning physics and math will explain you that measured frequency response curve (by voltage) of the amp loaded on a bumpy frequency dependent impedance will be affected by output resistance of the amp only: the lower is the output resistance of the amp, the less "bumpy" will be voltage VS frequency curve. And anyone that measured frequency response of speakers at least once will tell you that sound pressure curve and impedance curve don't correlate.
You don't really need to ask an engineer for explanations.
JA is correct, unless your speakers/amps/etc has been accepted by end users in the marketplace, your opinion isn't worth a whole lot.
Your speakers may measure better technically, or it may give a more sweet euphonic sound, but to really gain credibility, you need to develop your reputation on the open market. To think your speakers are the most superior just because it has the lowest 3rd order harmonics ever, well that's just your own opinion.
Your speakers may measure better technically, or it may give a more sweet euphonic sound, but to really gain credibility, you need to develop your reputation on the open market. To think your speakers are the most superior just because it has the lowest 3rd order harmonics ever, well that's just your own opinion.
I don't know if it really matters.
"Real" engineers make some really dreadful sounding audio gear, DIY and professionally.
Most of the best audio engineers I know do not actually have degrees in engineering but some do.
All of the good designers I know taught themselves how to do audio design and refined their knowledge through experience, whether or not they studied engineering.
"Real" engineers make some really dreadful sounding audio gear, DIY and professionally.
Most of the best audio engineers I know do not actually have degrees in engineering but some do.
All of the good designers I know taught themselves how to do audio design and refined their knowledge through experience, whether or not they studied engineering.
i tend to agree.... my best friend from high school can make really good sounding tube amps, but ask him about the hows and the whys, you get blank stares.....
so,
what you're saying is (ssssss),
that you post as JohnnyR on the $tereophile website.
and,
that some people can not resist stirring the pot no matter where you go or are.
------------------------------
i suppose that lumping all 10" woofers together is OK.
after all,
with a Bose® System one has/needs no concern for
10" woofers or dome tweeters of any type ...
-------------------------------------
and now for some more bad news -
the Anti-Britney ( aka Xtina ) has captured another victim!
check out his expression, not dead or alive, must be a zombie -
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A lot of this boils down to communication. Most of the people in this hobby, regardless of the forum, are very poor communicators. Particular the more vocal and philosophically 'adamant'. Maybe it's the 'engineer' or 'technician' mindset (as a generalization), but there is just this inability to acknowledge context - hence a Borg-like sameness in attitude and responses as I go from forum to forum, thread to thread regardless of the component under discussion.
Anyone who actually reads Stereophile with competence should know that it's very easy to get the 'gist' of the review if you are able to read between the lines. Reading the Devore review it's clear that yes they are colored, exhibit some flaws, and are very expensive. They also liked what they heard. Thus for any reader who has had experience with similar speakers, they know what to expect; for those who don't care for 'inaccurate' design, they know what to expect and can ignore; for those who have no idea - if you've got $12k to spend I'm pretty sure you're going to actually demo them before buying anyway without hassle. This isn't AV123 we're talkin' here. All their reviews are written in such a way as to give you an idea what to expect. And it's not their business to say a product is flawed unless it is defective.
And if anyone has a problem with that, I'll assume you don't own a television, you live off the grid, make your own clothes and operate the computer with a hand pumped power generator. That person I can respect.
And Stereophile is not for the diy'er so what is there to get angry about. It's like being pissed that Roger Ebert doesn't actually mention whether the movie he reviewed was shot on a RED camera or Genesis camera instead of film, and didn't warn about the crappy video-like quality of Genesis low-light/night scenes (Apocalypto for instance and many more). I sure as hell consider that defective as a personal opinion but I don't expect Ebert or any reviewer to be liable for not mentioning it. And people certainly seem to love these movies anyway. But the internets gives me power so ARGH Mr. Ebert, hear my roar!
And I love how Atkinson is taken out of context and is now attacking the entire diy establishment. I mean... Wow.
Anyone who actually reads Stereophile with competence should know that it's very easy to get the 'gist' of the review if you are able to read between the lines. Reading the Devore review it's clear that yes they are colored, exhibit some flaws, and are very expensive. They also liked what they heard. Thus for any reader who has had experience with similar speakers, they know what to expect; for those who don't care for 'inaccurate' design, they know what to expect and can ignore; for those who have no idea - if you've got $12k to spend I'm pretty sure you're going to actually demo them before buying anyway without hassle. This isn't AV123 we're talkin' here. All their reviews are written in such a way as to give you an idea what to expect. And it's not their business to say a product is flawed unless it is defective.
And if anyone has a problem with that, I'll assume you don't own a television, you live off the grid, make your own clothes and operate the computer with a hand pumped power generator. That person I can respect.
And Stereophile is not for the diy'er so what is there to get angry about. It's like being pissed that Roger Ebert doesn't actually mention whether the movie he reviewed was shot on a RED camera or Genesis camera instead of film, and didn't warn about the crappy video-like quality of Genesis low-light/night scenes (Apocalypto for instance and many more). I sure as hell consider that defective as a personal opinion but I don't expect Ebert or any reviewer to be liable for not mentioning it. And people certainly seem to love these movies anyway. But the internets gives me power so ARGH Mr. Ebert, hear my roar!
And I love how Atkinson is taken out of context and is now attacking the entire diy establishment. I mean... Wow.
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I'm not certain whether this comment is tongue-in-cheek, or whether you actually believe it yourself. Why frequent a forum where almost everyone has opinions which, not being based on sales, are (in your opinion) almost worthless?cotdt said:
Fortunately, truth does not depend on opinion or market popularity or forum popularity. For JA to imply otherwise was just silly; he normally talks more sense than that so maybe he just had a bad day.
There are many marketplaces in which the most popular items are poor performers or have low reliability or poor after-sales support. Sales are driven by marketing and herd pressure, not product quality.
Acceptance by end users is different from sales figures. If you make an amp/speaker that does very well by your own philosophies in audio design, but your mother, your wife, your brother, and all five of your friends each prefer another amp/speaker over yours in listening tests, then that amp is better accepted by them than your amp. Your opinion in audio design philoshophy maybe only your opinion and nobody elses'.
?????????? I used to post on the Stereophile forums under my present name but found it useless to continue posting anything there at all as others have said. why post on a forum where you are not welcome or your opinions considered at all? If anyone is stirring the pot I suppose it is you by stating what you just did. I do read their forums and blogs, I did not realize that by doing so and posting what I found here that I would be attacked by some paranoid wacko. I do not recall seeing your name on the Stereophile forums so perhaps you are the one posting under an assumed name?
John Atkinson stated and meant what he said as I posted on here and no one took what he said out of context. His opinion is that unless you are some successful speaker manufacturer then you have no right to critique other designs. He thinks he is always right about everything and has never admitted to being wrong so why should he start now? I said I wasn't going to commit anymore about this but when I am accused by others with some wacko theory about who I am, then I am going to defend myself and my statements.True, but irrelevant.cotdt said:
True, but irrelevant. The true worth of an opinion is how true it is, not how popular it is. The perceived worth of an opinion may, of course, be different from the true worth but that depends on the wisdom of the person making the judgement.
My opinion that Kirchoff's Current Law is true, and may be used to design amplifiers, is worth far more than any opinion to the contrary - even if the contrary view is held by someone with large sales and end-user acceptance. This is because conservation of charge is a property of the universe. No exception has ever been seen, and there are good reasons to expect that no exception is ever likely to be seen.
completely true, if his opinion is indeed different to what has been presumed, it probably would have been better to diffuse this situation somewhat earlier in the piece....
maybe his position in reality isnt as cut and dried as presented here, but I do think it was questionable at the least and requires something by way of an alternate context to be understood.
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You know the old sayings about "Never argue with idiots..."
When you are debating with a totally misguided troll it is easy to forget where the guidelines are yourself.
wushuliu is on to something with the notion of "failure to recognize context" that is a useful way to put it. I'd frame the problem also as the failure to recognize that crude and overgeneric mathematical "laws" do not trump experience and historical reality.
One can read a couple books and go to school for some background, but smart people keep their eyes, ears, and minds open and recognize that the job of empirical data gathering never ends. Models are meant to be adjusted and modified according to experience not to serve as an invariable mold that determines reality a priori.
One of the conditions of the review process is that it starts with what is, a finished product, while the DIY discussion often floats ideas about what could be, best ways to do things which haven't been done yet.
That's where the Stereophile trolls missed the point.
The DeVore speaker is a done deal, submitted for listening, testing, and evaluation. The idea that it is possible to make something different, cheaper, better, etc. is off topic.
Furthermore, the troll did not establish that he could in fact do better, he just declared that he could...and given his general lack of taste and contextual awareness, it is easy to imagine that he is below par in other intellectual and practical skills that come into play in successful product design. Shallow end of the gene pool, in other words.
Surely, some DIYers are at the very top of the field, but is Johnny R or the instigator of this thread a credible player merely by virtue of also being DIYers?
Hell no, "DIYer" is not a credential. It is a lifestyle choice. Respect and recognition are earned the hard way.
Evaluation means not only the reviewer but also the readers opinions be they technical or subjective.
Your opinion that JohnnyR is in the shallow end of the gene pool shows your own biases when you know nothing else about him other than what you read in that post. He did explain why the speaker in question was not a good design. If his methods of getting that across does not meet with your own personal approval, non the less it does not diminish the technical aspects that he brought up.
Respect is earned but JA has lost a lot of respect by his own actions. Simply building and producing a pricey speaker and then getting the less informed to buy it in quantity does not earn you respect.
I think what has gotten lost in this thread is JA's own statements about who can and can't critique a speaker based upon JA's own beliefs.
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