The thread (JLH - Pass - Krell clone - Cresendo what sounds best) is a very difficult question to answer. I bet that we all have had such question in our mind before. But indeed I think in certain extend most of us would like to know the answer to the question if there will ever be one. This thread can never be a technical discussion.
This is very similar to most of us poor people that wondering Ferrari – Porches – Maserati what drives best. Only a person can answer this question is that one has driven all of them and the answer is solely valid to him/her not to any other person. But this does not mean there is nothing to talk about. People can still say that rear mount engine does this, center mount engine does that etc. Just points of views and opinions, well may be some facts.
Upupa Epops was brave/silly enough to answer the question with a generalized personal opinion. His mistake IMO was such that he kind of like saying (when I see the horse dropping I know how it will perform in the race track) granted it is a very wild generalized statement but there may be a little true in there too; if the horse is sick that might show up in its dropping.
The point is when members are getting personal flamed, moderators should discourage it rather than join in the attack and deal with the other if he sees opinions are not opinions.
IHMO
Chris
By the way, welcome to the forum Upupa and I like to read more of your impressions of all those amps.
This is very similar to most of us poor people that wondering Ferrari – Porches – Maserati what drives best. Only a person can answer this question is that one has driven all of them and the answer is solely valid to him/her not to any other person. But this does not mean there is nothing to talk about. People can still say that rear mount engine does this, center mount engine does that etc. Just points of views and opinions, well may be some facts.
Upupa Epops was brave/silly enough to answer the question with a generalized personal opinion. His mistake IMO was such that he kind of like saying (when I see the horse dropping I know how it will perform in the race track) granted it is a very wild generalized statement but there may be a little true in there too; if the horse is sick that might show up in its dropping.
The point is when members are getting personal flamed, moderators should discourage it rather than join in the attack and deal with the other if he sees opinions are not opinions.
IHMO
Chris
By the way, welcome to the forum Upupa and I like to read more of your impressions of all those amps.
Henrik said:
I also agree.
chris ma said:
I mentioned it before. My first choice is to be a member and moderrating is only something I do part-time. I don't want my part-time job influencing my active participating in a forum. As you noticed by far my motto is: 'Say what you mean-mean what you think-think anything, Why not '
If I misbehave, be sure the other mods are watching.
BTW, my feeling is that Upupa has definitely big experience and knowledge with amplifiers, and I didn't want him to be discouraged in any way. My feeling is, he isn't
Re: Deaf
Hi,
Were you sure the blind man did not buy the colour television for someone with a pair of normal functional eyes in front of his face below his forehead and just above the bridge of his nose?i
Regards,
Chris
Elso Kwak said:
Hi Henrik,
This reminds me of my boss selling a color television set to a blind man.
I bursted in laughing but my boss assured all went well....
(from the time in my life I worked as a salesman in a Hifi and TV-shop)
SCIENTIFIC ??? Come on, this forum is for fun. There even excisted a firm Scientific Audio Elecronics. The schematics were far from "scientific"
Hi,
Were you sure the blind man did not buy the colour television for someone with a pair of normal functional eyes in front of his face below his forehead and just above the bridge of his nose?i
Regards,
Chris
Re: Re: Deaf
Hi Chris,
Yes the TV was for his wife who had normal vision at the location you indicated.
But his spouse did not accompany him when he visited our shop.
chris ma said:
Hi,
Were you sure the blind man did not buy the colour television for someone with a pair of normal functional eyes in front of his face below his forehead and just above the bridge of his nose?i
Regards,
Chris
Hi Chris,
Yes the TV was for his wife who had normal vision at the location you indicated.
But his spouse did not accompany him when he visited our shop.
I may not have the privelege of knowing all but I can recognize bull when I see it. Or hear it for that matter. It doesn't require a mechanic to know your car is broken. And I don't believe in leaving bull unanswered: consider for a minute the original question Kees posed: he asked for help and generally received some pretty good advice. At least enough to know that various paths existed to where he wants to be; no single "golden path" to some holy audio grail... Which is exactly what Upuppa was trying to sell him.
So please have any different opinion, but back it up and ground it in common sense, not self-serving, unilateral dogma. Then you may see less "sparkle" and "brightness"...
I don´t think you can judge the sound of an amplifier that easily.
Just the schematic and layout?
There are quite a few variables, the most important being the speaker the amp is driving.
I heard a lot of "perfect couples" where the amp was "just" a gainclone with a minor quality chip like some STK-modules or TDA2030.
But the again it might be my ears.... my brain that fool me.
I just liked the sound.
We shouldn´t forget that biologically we see everything turned around 180 degrees and it´s our brain that compenses.
Doesn´t it sound a bit similar to the "burning-in-sensation"?
Cheers
Jens - giving his 2 cents and enjoying the funny thread
Just the schematic and layout?
There are quite a few variables, the most important being the speaker the amp is driving.
I heard a lot of "perfect couples" where the amp was "just" a gainclone with a minor quality chip like some STK-modules or TDA2030.
But the again it might be my ears.... my brain that fool me.
I just liked the sound.
We shouldn´t forget that biologically we see everything turned around 180 degrees and it´s our brain that compenses.
Doesn´t it sound a bit similar to the "burning-in-sensation"?
Cheers
Jens - giving his 2 cents and enjoying the funny thread
Oh hell, I think I must have made a mistake. If DrG can make fun of a foreign guy's name, then he must be right about all this. In fact, I bow at your ability to mock others. It's nothing short of genius. So far, apart from criticise me because you don't like my opinion, you and analog_sa (this one's obviously a high-brow, too) have actually contributed nothing whatsoever to substantiate the why. You have no argument. If you care to dream one up, then let's hear it. All the things I've said are of course utterly ridiculous because you and your golden ears can just prove me wrong in an instant, right?
Have I built an amplifier in my head? Uhhhh, are you simple? I don't suppose you care to notice that I never personally insulted anybody in my post, despite voicing my opinion without restraint. Maybe that's something you should try to learn how to do. Maybe you were bullied as a child, who knows? Either way, your complete arrogance reaches epic sizes with the way you don't argue against something, you just make fun of it. And you can have it. There's nothing to learn here, not from people like you. I just hope you never get a job designing life support machines.
Have I built an amplifier in my head? Uhhhh, are you simple? I don't suppose you care to notice that I never personally insulted anybody in my post, despite voicing my opinion without restraint. Maybe that's something you should try to learn how to do. Maybe you were bullied as a child, who knows? Either way, your complete arrogance reaches epic sizes with the way you don't argue against something, you just make fun of it. And you can have it. There's nothing to learn here, not from people like you. I just hope you never get a job designing life support machines.
Wingfeather said:
Nothing personal, but if you want to discuss golden ears and present your opinion, this thread is a perfect playground: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12752&highlight=blind+testing
This one I'll take as a compliment...
Ol' analog_SA and myself have had some fun differences in the past, actually. I would agree that he appears high-brow from your point of view, as do I. But maybe that's 'cos we got the amp carcasses, solder burns and a little more than "mathematical and logical" skills to engage in opinion-forming on this subject. Your (admitted) inexperienced rigidity encourages you to make broad, sweeping and untrue statements like the one below. Do you find it strange that you receive strong responses?
By your logic, all amps that measure similar should sound similar. But they don't. And "golden ears" are not required to tell the difference. So why not saunter over to your local hi-fi store with your favorite CD's and compare any two amps whose measured results satisfy your criteria. Settle down, chill and listen. You may find your own golden ears deceiving your prejudice...
The differences are there and real, whether you eventually have the courage to admit it after your listening session or not. The reasons are often unclear and not reflected in "standard" measurement parameters. Remember Wingfeather, few of many parameters are measured and even fewer are ever quoted; it has never been established unambiguously which of those are related to perceived sound and in what way. This is factual truth. Whether or not you dismiss it is entirely your own conundrum... but I think you may find some of those despised "bollocks" to ruffle your tailfeathers, Wingfeather.
I'm incorrigible...
No.
I hope so too...
Come guys, no fighting here. There is nothing mysterious on electronics and amplifier design. Those who are talking black magic or adapt too strong to a certain design cannot be good electronic engineers.
I attached my design. What do you think?
It is a simulation model. The output stage transistors are not the one I want to use, but these models are available for simulation. Maybe I want to use more output devices.
I attached my design. What do you think?
It is a simulation model. The output stage transistors are not the one I want to use, but these models are available for simulation. Maybe I want to use more output devices.
Black Magic
Try the following and you will see, that there is no way to predict the sound of an amplifier by the circuit diagram.
- Change the biases
- change the wires, keep the diameter (from solid to flexible or vice versa)
- change the the type of caps in the signal path from electrolytics to film or vice versa, but keep their values (capacity, voltage)
These modifications are easily done and cheap. I did it 20 years ago with low-fi equipment (that's why it is cheap) and was surprised how much the sound changes. I thought a wire is a wire....
After this experience I decided to build my own amplifier and tune it until I like it.
The "black magic" is the experience on how to select parts and circuitry to give the - personally judged - best sound thus avoiding trying every possible combination which may take years.
Peter
Try the following and you will see, that there is no way to predict the sound of an amplifier by the circuit diagram.
- Change the biases
- change the wires, keep the diameter (from solid to flexible or vice versa)
- change the the type of caps in the signal path from electrolytics to film or vice versa, but keep their values (capacity, voltage)
These modifications are easily done and cheap. I did it 20 years ago with low-fi equipment (that's why it is cheap) and was surprised how much the sound changes. I thought a wire is a wire....
After this experience I decided to build my own amplifier and tune it until I like it.
The "black magic" is the experience on how to select parts and circuitry to give the - personally judged - best sound thus avoiding trying every possible combination which may take years.
Peter
It's stable with these devices. But as I indicated, I can't find spice models from Sanken which a higher Ft.
The stability has to be arranged with R22 and C3. I think these values have to be find out by trial and error.
It also may be wise to experiment with the loop gain by changing the resistors in the differential amplifiers, R17, R18, R26 and R27.
The stability has to be arranged with R22 and C3. I think these values have to be find out by trial and error.
It also may be wise to experiment with the loop gain by changing the resistors in the differential amplifiers, R17, R18, R26 and R27.
Unfortunately not, look at the previous posts. That's why I've written the post.
To your design:
Those outputstages are usually used if Q9 and Q22 are low power but high linearity / high speed types. But you use the the same for Q11 and Q24.
Usually this circuitry gives low distortion but wideband hormonics. I tried it and was not happy with it. I use MOSFETs (personal taste, black magic you know...) - distort maybe more, but sounds better to me.
Wingfeather said:
Well I've eaten at SPAGO and Emirils, but that doesn't make me a chef.
There is plenty of Black Magic and VooDoo in audio, and in DIY especially. Lots of ideas are found to be good ones by poking and prodding, then when something good happens, we go out and find a scientific reason to back it up. The thought that you can look at a schematic and saying "too much 2nd order harmonics" is out there, man.
And back to the topic, I don't own one, but of the three or four amps mentioned in the original post, the Pass is one of the purest, under-hyped amps out there. I can't even mention the others in the same sentance without feeling the need to apologise to Mr. Pass.
The 5th Generation Zen is a real piece of work, but in a simple, pure kind of way, not the "Oh my God that is the seetest thing I have ever heard" way the commercial Pass amps are. H#ll, the sweet blue meter on the front panel makes it sound better than a Krell.
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